0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
The most evil dictatorships and theocracies are renowned for the survival value of their laws.
Even the Golden Rule doesn’t supply guidance. Any theocratic murderer will say “If you ever find me violating [some god]’s sacred moral code, please kill me.”.
Morality of a system is intended to protect the system from harm caused by conscious agents happen to be its members. The maximum harm is which causes the system's death or disappearance. An individual morality protects from suicidal behavior of the individual itself, which is its sole agent. Tribal morality protects the tribal system from harmful behaviors of its members. This can be generalized for larger systems such as religious, national, international systems. It just happen that protecting it's members tend to improve the survival rate of the system itself. That's why we get human rights as a member of humanist system.
So does the most righteous societies.
When they include extraterrestrial life forms, some compromises should be made to accomodate the differences.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/01/2021 04:23:03So does the most righteous societies.Can you name one that has been blameless and unpersecuted for more than a single genration?
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/01/2021 04:27:10Even the Golden Rule doesn’t supply guidance. Any theocratic murderer will say “If you ever find me violating [some god]’s sacred moral code, please kill me.”.Still fails Test 1. He wouldn't like it if I killed him for violating my superstition. Nor is there much evidence of self-immolation of those who have broken their own professed moral code.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/01/2021 09:12:48When they include extraterrestrial life forms, some compromises should be made to accomodate the differences. All life forms are either predators or prey. They cannot have compatible moral codes.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/12/2020 04:02:12Quote from: alancalverd on 06/12/2020 00:07:49Best case as defined by who or what? The beauty of my tests is that they are completely defined.By any being meets minimum requirements of consciousness. In other words there is no universal definition of best case, even if we have an accepted and universal definition of consciousness.
Quote from: alancalverd on 06/12/2020 00:07:49Best case as defined by who or what? The beauty of my tests is that they are completely defined.By any being meets minimum requirements of consciousness.
Best case as defined by who or what? The beauty of my tests is that they are completely defined.
A universal moral system can only be built on a universal fundamental truth. No additional complexity should be added beyond necessity. If we follow the logic and use the required concepts consistently, we will inevitably arrive to those extreme possibilities. In the other thread I called the best case scenario as universal utopia.
The best case scenario can be used as a lode star to guide us making decisions in various situations, and setting up rules to be applied in most frequent situations. Many moral rules rely on Pareto principle. Many decisions must be done quickly. Those moral rules are useful as shortcut for processing information which can take too long to simulate all options and their consequences.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 04/12/2020 14:00:17Let me remind you again the definition of morality according to dictionary:Quoteprinciples concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.Discussion of morality will inevitably compare many different situations, decisions, actions, and behaviors with many different results or consequences. Good behaviors are expected to bring good consequences in the long run. Comparing many possible results will show us the best case scenario as well as the worst case, and everything in between. I've explore those scenario in another thread. Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 04/12/2020 01:23:10Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/12/2020 01:21:04In this thread I've come into conclusion that the best case scenario for life is that conscious beings keep existing indefinitely and don't depend on particular natural resources. The next best thing is that current conscious beings are showing progress in the right direction to achieve that best case scenario.The worst case scenario is that all conscious beings go extinct, since it would make all the efforts we do now are worthless. In a universe without conscious being, the concept of goal itself become meaningless. The next worst thing is that current conscious beings are showing progress in the wrong direction which will eventually lead to that worst case scenario.In many religious beliefs, the best case scenario above is taken for granted. So their efforts are never directed towards achieving that. Instead, they set arbitrarily chosen preferred conditions as their terminal goal.On the other hand, the worst case scenario is dismissed without adequate justification. This creates false security that whatever we do, it is guaranteed that the consequences will never bring that worse case scenario.
Let me remind you again the definition of morality according to dictionary:Quoteprinciples concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.
principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/12/2020 01:21:04In this thread I've come into conclusion that the best case scenario for life is that conscious beings keep existing indefinitely and don't depend on particular natural resources. The next best thing is that current conscious beings are showing progress in the right direction to achieve that best case scenario.The worst case scenario is that all conscious beings go extinct, since it would make all the efforts we do now are worthless. In a universe without conscious being, the concept of goal itself become meaningless. The next worst thing is that current conscious beings are showing progress in the wrong direction which will eventually lead to that worst case scenario.In many religious beliefs, the best case scenario above is taken for granted. So their efforts are never directed towards achieving that. Instead, they set arbitrarily chosen preferred conditions as their terminal goal.On the other hand, the worst case scenario is dismissed without adequate justification. This creates false security that whatever we do, it is guaranteed that the consequences will never bring that worse case scenario.
In this thread I've come into conclusion that the best case scenario for life is that conscious beings keep existing indefinitely and don't depend on particular natural resources. The next best thing is that current conscious beings are showing progress in the right direction to achieve that best case scenario.The worst case scenario is that all conscious beings go extinct, since it would make all the efforts we do now are worthless. In a universe without conscious being, the concept of goal itself become meaningless. The next worst thing is that current conscious beings are showing progress in the wrong direction which will eventually lead to that worst case scenario.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/12/2020 04:02:12If you have a better alternative to my best case scenario, let me know. I don't need one! My tests carry an internal reference.
If you have a better alternative to my best case scenario, let me know.
It doesn't purport to distinguish good from bad, but moral from immoral.
It's very simple.Bombing a civilian-rich target is immoral because you wouldn't like it if I did it to you, and you wouldn't do it to your family.
But not wrong or bad.
You can extend Maimonides' view on lying to encompass other immoral actions that may be taken to avert a greater wrong.
[/Jewish tradition states that in his commentary on the Mishnah (tractate Sanhedrin, chapter 10), Maimonides formulates his "13 principles of faith"; and that these principles summarized what he viewed as the required beliefs of Judaism: 1.The existence of God.2.God's unity and indivisibility into elements.3.God's spirituality and incorporeality.4.God's eternity.5.God alone should be the object of worship.6.Revelation through God's prophets.7.The preeminence of Moses among the prophets.8.That the entire Torah (both the Written and Oral law) are of Divine origin and were dictated to Moses by God on Mt. Sinai.9.The Torah given by Moses is permanent and will not be replaced or changed.10.God's awareness of all human actions and thoughts.11.Reward of righteousness and punishment of evil.12.The coming of the Jewish Messiah.13.The resurrection of the dead.quote]
I feel like there are some things that human nature generally agree to. But it is difficult to establish a set of moral that is absolutely good or bad universally. The concept of dichotomy, I would argue, is something that human creates to make sense of the world. I think we should start to see things in a spectrum. For example, it is human nature to think that lying is bad. Some people lies a lot, some people never lies at all, but I think most people are somehow in the middle: they know they should not lie, but a little white lie here and there is fine for them. That, at least, is how I perceive things.