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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1000 on: 22/01/2021 15:27:42 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/01/2021 14:02:31
You can't produce more resources
Space is mostly unexplored. Some asteroids are expected to contain more precious metals than what humans have ever mined.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1001 on: 22/01/2021 16:25:47 »
Apart from gold contacts on circuit boards and reed switches, and platinum crucibles, I've never considered "precious" metals to be of any significance in my life. I do however need lots of oxygen, water, carbohydrates, fats, proteins, vitamins, and various trace elements that are adequately abundant on this planet as long as not too many other people are trying to get hold of them. So why not just limit the population to what can be sustained indefinitely? Particularly as it can be done at no cost, no effort, and immediate benefit to everyone.

And remember that the monetary value of gold and diamond lies entirely in their rarity! If we suddenly doubled the amount of gold in circulation, our banking system would collapse (again). 
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1002 on: 22/01/2021 18:25:44 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/01/2021 16:25:47


And remember that the monetary value of gold and diamond lies entirely in their rarity! If we suddenly doubled the amount of gold in circulation, our banking system would collapse (again).

When you mention the amount of gold "in circulation", is that a valid point any more.  It used to be in earlier times, when gold was made into coins. Such as golden guineas, and "pieces of eight" and doubloons, etc.  These really did physically circulate among the populace.  At least among the rich portions of the populace.  Or the pirate community.

But in modern times, that doesn't happen.  No-one today ever uses a gold coin to purchase anything.

There are still gold "coins" in existence. Such as Krugerrands.  But these are only standardised lumps of gold.
The equivalent of an "ingot" or "gold bar".  These lumps of gold do not circulate, but are kept in private safes, or bank vaults.  Especially in Swiss banks.

I've read that in Swiss bank vaults, there are lots of big piles of gold bars on the floor.  All the piles have a label on top, such as "USA"  or "UK" or "Japan".

The piles of gold never move.  Only the labels get transferred between them.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1003 on: 22/01/2021 21:16:28 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/01/2021 14:02:31
Assuming that most humans mate for life, the genetic makeup of a second son won't be much different from the first, so the evolution of the species will continue with fewer males, but the survival of the species requires a small surplus of females because not all are fertile. We may need to encourage bigamy.
Not all males are fertile either. We need data to support our assertions
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1004 on: 22/01/2021 21:22:09 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/01/2021 14:02:31
On the other hand if we reduced the world population to 10 - 20% of its current size our descendants could all enjoy a Western standard of living for as long as the sun shines. That could be achieved in 100 years by encouraging women not to have more than one child, with immediate and continuing benefits to everyone and no hardship.
That's what China did to it's population, including Uighurs. But the later is met with a lot of backlash and accusation of genocide.
To convince them, you need to offer good reasons why western living standard is good for them.  They will also ask if it's the perfect choice. Is it possible to improve it further?
« Last Edit: 22/01/2021 22:20:55 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1005 on: 22/01/2021 21:33:03 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/01/2021 16:25:47
Apart from gold contacts on circuit boards and reed switches, and platinum crucibles, I've never considered "precious" metals to be of any significance in my life.
They are needed to build computers and controllers in industrial revolution 4. They are also needed as catalyst for many chemical processes. Also for batteries for transportation and optimize renewable energies.
Foods need processing. More people means more food can be produced. It can be produced by machine, though. But then you need more metals to build more machines.
What's important is to be independent from any particular heavenly body, so our survival can be less vulnerable to catastrophic events.
« Last Edit: 22/01/2021 22:15:45 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1006 on: 23/01/2021 16:15:10 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/01/2021 21:22:09
That's what China did to it's population,
I said encourage, not force.

There seems to be quite an appetite for cars, electrical appliances, and a meat-based diet, in modern China.To live to a Western standard (which doesn't mean adopting any particular choice, but having plenty of choice) requires at least 5 kW of controllable power qand 2500 Cal/day  per capita. This cannot be generated sustainably for 6,000,000,000 people but is entirely feasible for one tenth of that number.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1007 on: 24/01/2021 01:42:13 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 23/01/2021 16:15:10
There seems to be quite an appetite for cars, electrical appliances, and a meat-based diet, in modern China.To live to a Western standard (which doesn't mean adopting any particular choice, but having plenty of choice) requires at least 5 kW of controllable power qand 2500 Cal/day  per capita. This cannot be generated sustainably for 6,000,000,000 people but is entirely feasible for one tenth of that number.
Is it already the ideal condition? Is it possible to improve it further? What would it look like to live better than current western standard?
« Last Edit: 24/01/2021 01:48:37 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1008 on: 24/01/2021 13:23:12 »
It is a currently desirable and achievable condition. We pass this way but once, and I'd hope to leave the world better than when I arrived (there were rockets falling on London, and now they go to Pluto, so we've achieved a little bit). Better to improve the status quo with what we have to hand, than sit and wonder what  we might achieve with more.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1009 on: 24/01/2021 22:10:15 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/01/2021 13:23:12
It is a currently desirable and achievable condition. We pass this way but once, and I'd hope to leave the world better than when I arrived (there were rockets falling on London, and now they go to Pluto, so we've achieved a little bit). Better to improve the status quo with what we have to hand, than sit and wonder what  we might achieve with more.
Or wonder what could go wrong so we can prevent them.
You still have to define what it means to have a better life. Would it be better if we live longer? or should it be shorter instead? Is there an ideal condition? Is it achievable?
« Last Edit: 24/01/2021 22:26:00 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1010 on: 24/01/2021 22:47:34 »
The minimum condition for a good life is to choose when and how to end it - the ultimate demonstration of autonomy.

En route to that destination, we next desire an absence of disease, hunger, or other environmental stress, followed by an extension of autonomy  such that nobody feels threatened or oppressed by anyone else.

A balanced  reduction of the human population can remove most of the environmental stresses. Most criminal codes are pretty similar as regards outlawing theft, murder, or uttering threats of any kind, but true autonomy also requires that we outlaw the preaching of religion as a part of our antidiscrimination statutes.

Having got rid of most sources of fear, and increased the per capita availability of essentials, we can pretty much leave it up to individuals to decide what would optimise their experience without harming or burdening others.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1011 on: 25/01/2021 01:47:35 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/01/2021 22:47:34
The minimum condition for a good life is to choose when and how to end it - the ultimate demonstration of autonomy.
Have you decided when and how you will end your life?

Quote from: alancalverd on 24/01/2021 22:47:34
A balanced  reduction of the human population can remove most of the environmental stresses.
What do you propose to achieve that? What should we do to those who don't agree, and make decisions which effectively increase the population?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1012 on: 25/01/2021 06:59:04 »
Quote from: coffee on 25/01/2021 05:00:35
May be these help

Here are  lists of universal  human needs and values
Maybe you can just start by typing or quoting the most fundamental values in what you think as a universal moral standard. It should only consist of a few sentences. You can then explain how you can arrive to your conclusion, or why you reject some of its alternatives.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1013 on: 25/01/2021 08:23:31 »
By its name alone, we can conclude that a universal moral standard is related to Moral universalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_universalism
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Moral universalism (also called moral objectivism) is the meta-ethical position that some system of ethics, or a universal ethic, applies universally, that is, for "all similarly situated individuals",[1] regardless of culture, race, sex, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, or any other distinguishing feature.[2] Moral universalism is opposed to moral nihilism and moral relativism. However, not all forms of moral universalism are absolutist, nor are they necessarily value monist; many forms of universalism, such as utilitarianism, are non-absolutist, and some forms, such as that of Isaiah Berlin, may be value pluralist.

In addition to the theories of moral realism, moral universalism includes other cognitivist moral theories, such as the subjectivist ideal observer theory and divine command theory, and also the non-cognitivist moral theory of universal prescriptivism.
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According to philosophy professor R. W. Hepburn: "To move towards the objectivist pole is to argue that moral judgements can be rationally defensible, true or false, that there are rational procedural tests for identifying morally impermissible actions, or that moral values exist independently of the feeling-states of individuals at particular times."[5]

Linguist and political theorist Noam Chomsky states:

"if we adopt the principle of universality: if an action is right (or wrong) for others, it is right (or wrong) for us. Those who do not rise to the minimal moral level of applying to themselves the standards they apply to others—more stringent ones, in fact—plainly cannot be taken seriously when they speak of appropriateness of response; or of right and wrong, good and evil."[6]
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1014 on: 25/01/2021 08:26:04 »
That's in contrast with Moral absolutism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_absolutism
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Moral absolutism is an ethical view that all actions are intrinsically right or wrong. Stealing, for instance, might be considered to be always immoral, even if done for the well-being of others (e.g., stealing food to feed a starving family), and even if it does in the end promote such a good. Moral absolutism stands in contrast to other categories of normative ethical theories such as consequentialism, which holds that the morality (in the wide sense) of an act depends on the consequences or the context of the act.

Moral absolutism is not the same as moral universalism. Universalism holds merely that what is right or wrong is independent of custom or opinion (as opposed to moral relativism),[1] but not necessarily that what is right or wrong is independent of context or consequences (as in absolutism). Moral universalism is compatible with moral absolutism, but also positions such as consequentialism. Louis Pojman gives the following definitions to distinguish the two positions of moral absolutism and universalism:[2]

Moral absolutism: There is at least one principle that ought never to be violated.
Moral objectivism: There is a fact of the matter as to whether any given action is morally permissible or impermissible: a fact of the matter that does not depend solely on social custom or individual acceptance.
Ethical theories which place strong emphasis on rights and duty, such as the deontological ethics of Immanuel Kant, are often forms of moral absolutism, as are many religious moral codes.
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Moral absolutism can be understood in a strictly secular context, as in many forms of deontological moral rationalism. However, many religions also adhere to moral absolutist positions, since their moral system is derived from divine commandments. Therefore, such a moral system is absolute, (usually) perfect and unchanging. Many secular philosophies, borrowing from religion, also take a morally absolutist position, asserting that the absolute laws of morality are inherent in the nature of people, the nature of life in general, or the Universe itself. For example, someone who absolutely believes in non-violence considers it wrong to use violence even in self-defense.

Catholic philosopher Thomas Aquinas never explicitly addresses the Euthyphro dilemma, but draws a distinction between what is good or evil in itself and what is good or evil because of God's commands,[3] with unchangeable moral standards forming the bulk of natural law.[4] Thus he contends that not even God can change the Ten Commandments, adding, however, that God can change what individuals deserve in particular cases, in what might look like special dispensations to murder or steal.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1015 on: 25/01/2021 08:46:02 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/01/2021 08:23:31
a universal ethic, applies universally, that is, for "all similarly situated individuals",[1] regardless of culture, race, sex, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, or any other distinguishing feature.
As we can see here, the description of universal ethic as currently accepted by philosophers comes with a caveat, "all similarly situated individuals". Where should we draw the line of the similarity? Should we apply the exact same moral rules to young children? babies? elderly? mentally or physically disabled? members of non-human species? intelligent machines?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1016 on: 25/01/2021 08:59:29 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/01/2021 01:47:35
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/01/2021 22:47:34
The minimum condition for a good life is to choose when and how to end it - the ultimate demonstration of autonomy.
Have you decided when and how you will end your life?
Yes. January 2029, hypothermia. The date may be delayed if I am in good health and happily married. 

Quote
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/01/2021 22:47:34
A balanced  reduction of the human population can remove most of the environmental stresses.
What do you propose to achieve that? What should we do to those who don't agree, and make decisions which effectively increase the population?

  For the UK and similar countries: abolish all child and maternity benefits and pay every woman aged 15 to 55 £500 every 6 months if she is not pregnant. Allow one exception to the "nonpregnant" rule and another if the child does not survive to age 16. Those who can afford to raise more than one child with no state support can do whatever they wish.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1017 on: 25/01/2021 09:18:47 »
I've cautioned against -isms and philosophers many times in this conversation. This is a science forum so we should stick to robust hypotheses and economic implementations of them.

The "golden rule" and the "wife test" can be pretty universally applied and should be taught at an early age.

How we treat nonhuman species depends on the species and its ecological role. I can see no advantage in the malaria plasmodium to any species but itself, likewise tapeworms, so I'm happy to poison them. Breeding  dogs that can't run or breathe properly is pointless and will probably be prohibited by canine societies in the next few years anyway. Farming animals for meat is part of the problem.

How we treat machines is as machines, to be exploited for our convenience and switched off if they misbehave.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1018 on: 25/01/2021 10:48:51 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/01/2021 08:59:29
Yes. January 2029, hypothermia. The date may be delayed if I am in good health and happily married. 
So it's not a fixed date. If newest technology can keep you and your wife healthy indefinitely, you would rather continue to live indefinitely.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1019 on: 25/01/2021 10:56:20 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/01/2021 08:59:29
For the UK and similar countries: abolish all child and maternity benefits and pay every woman aged 15 to 55 £500 every 6 months if she is not pregnant. Allow one exception to the "nonpregnant" rule and another if the child does not survive to age 16. Those who can afford to raise more than one child with no state support can do whatever they wish.
How did you come up with those numbers? Do you think that the new rules would affect how kids already born will grow?
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