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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1220 on: 03/03/2021 16:22:35 »
You missed the point! The entire MCAS system is probably unnecessary: an angle of attack warning  should suffice, along with sufficient training to anticipate and correct for the sudden increase in lift on rotation. Apparently the system was developed to assist the pilots of airforce tankers, which are subject to rapid oscillation as the cargo slops around, and was shoved into service on a passenger/ regular cargo ship where the load remains pretty stable, to overcome a minor oddity on the departure characteristic.   

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During the certification of the MAX in 2017, Boeing removed a description of MCAS from the flight manuals, leaving pilots unaware of the system when the airplane entered service.[1][2] The Wall Street Journal reported that Boeing had failed to share information about that issue for "about a year" before the crash of Lion Air Flight 610.[3] Twelve days after the Lion Air accident, on November 10, 2018, Boeing publicly revealed MCAS in a message to airline operators, noting that the system operates "without pilot input."

Reminds me of the only time I have been scared in any kind of machine. I rented a car with an early "stop-start" antipollution system. No problem untiI I stopped in the middle of a crossroads in Edinburgh and the engine just died, with traffic converging in all directions. Never mind air quality, the first thing I do in an unfamiliar rental nowadays is to switch the damn thing off!
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1221 on: 03/03/2021 21:44:14 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 03/03/2021 16:22:35
You missed the point! The entire MCAS system is probably unnecessary: an angle of attack warning  should suffice, along with sufficient training to anticipate and correct for the sudden increase in lift on rotation. Apparently the system was developed to assist the pilots of airforce tankers, which are subject to rapid oscillation as the cargo slops around, and was shoved into service on a passenger/ regular cargo ship where the load remains pretty stable, to overcome a minor oddity on the departure characteristic.   
It was an attempt to bypass a long regulatory process which Boeing must go through if they made significant structural design changes to improve fuel efficiency, which was triggered by Airbus' success to do it.
If only it was done correctly, it shouldn't cause accidents.
« Last Edit: 03/03/2021 22:17:41 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1222 on: 04/03/2021 12:46:09 »
No additional regulatory process was required. A new type requires a new operating manual and it is then up to the  regulatory authorities to decide what level of type rating is required for pilots. The new EASA type rating syllabus for the MAX  includes learning how to switch off the MCAS, though it is possible that people flying a non-European registered MAX on a non-EASA  licence may not require such training.

No aircraft is indefinitely stable, and the instabilities change with speed, load and angle of attack. Hence mandatory type ratings, operating manuals, simulators, Company pilots, instructors and examiners.
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Offline charles1948

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1223 on: 04/03/2021 17:53:37 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 04/03/2021 12:46:09
No additional regulatory process was required. A new type requires a new operating manual and it is then up to the  regulatory authorities to decide what level of type rating is required for pilots. The new EASA type rating syllabus for the MAX  includes learning how to switch off the MCAS, though it is possible that people flying a non-European registered MAX on a non-EASA  licence may not require such training.

No aircraft is indefinitely stable, and the instabilities change with speed, load and angle of attack. Hence mandatory type ratings, operating manuals, simulators, Company pilots, instructors and examiners.


The points you make are valid.  But don't you think that Boeing's essential error was this:

They kept trying to "stretch" the old 737 too far.  Because "stretching" it was cheaper, so they thought, than designing and building a completely new aircraft.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1224 on: 05/03/2021 00:57:53 »
Debatable what a "completely new" aircraft might look like. The industry generally proceeds by evolution, which is why the pitch stabiliser is usually at the back where it can stall the plane instead of the front, where it can't.

All large passenger jets trace their ancestry to the B29. The only significant departures were the Comet (based on fighter designs with the engines buried close to the fuselage, so very difficult to maintain or upgrade)  and Concorde (uneconomic). What would you suggest?

Most of the cockpit of the BA146  was copied from a Boeing 707 because it had four jet engines and worked fairly well - why reinvent the wheel? Increasing the capacity or range of the 737 is entirely logical because it's a fundamentally well-sorted design. 

Fitting a bigger engine is entirely normal on all successful designs from the Piper Cub (originally 40 HP, modern "Super Cubs" up to 180 HP) to the Spitfire (1030 HP to 2300 HP) but always involves a change in flight characteristics and in practically every case some formal type conversion training. That's the only bit that Boeing and the FAA missed out, assuming that the MCAS computer would cover it, and not mentioning it in the handbook. Funny, that. If you modify the oven or the toilet, the ground and cabin crews  get introductory training, but if you add a wholly unnecessary flight control that overrides the pilot, you don't have to tell him.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1225 on: 05/03/2021 16:54:05 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 05/03/2021 00:57:53
Funny, that. If you modify the oven or the toilet, the ground and cabin crews  get introductory training, but if you add a wholly unnecessary flight control that overrides the pilot, you don't have to tell him.
Do you think that what they did is evil? is it immoral? why so?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1226 on: 06/03/2021 18:13:43 »
It certainly fails my test of morality because if I fitted a gadget that modifies the flight characteristics of a plane I'd certainly tell the other pilots (not quite my nearest and dearest, but you get the point) and I'd be pretty pissed off if somebody tweaked my plane without telling me.

Evil? Not sure. I don't detect any malice. In fact the MCAS addition was well-intended but incompetent, and not including it in the operating manual should fall into the category of criminal negligence.

Funnily enough I just remembered two parallel incidents. Some years ago I fitted an experimental electronic ignition system to my father's car. But it was done with his knowledge and consent, and there was an "override" switch. Massive improvement in performance, but the system died about two years later: no problem because he had read the manual and just flipped the switch!  And from my father's recollection: he was issued with a company car in the days when motor vehicles were rare, because he was on call for emergencies. One day he complained to the mechanic that the brakes were noisy. He picked the car up at the end of the day to drive home and found the brakes didn't work at all - not the sort of  thing you want to discover in London traffic. Turned out that the mechanic had cured the squealing brakes by lubricating them with graphite. Boeing employee, perhaps? 

Truly, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1227 on: 07/03/2021 01:43:10 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 06/03/2021 18:13:43
Evil? Not sure. I don't detect any malice. In fact the MCAS addition was well-intended but incompetent, and not including it in the operating manual should fall into the category of criminal negligence.
Is there a hard line to tell if some action is evil or not? How can we tell if something is done with malice intention?

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/12/2020 05:03:36
Hanlon's razor is an aphorism expressed in various ways, including:
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
Probably named after a Robert J. Hanlon, it is a philosophical razor which suggests a way of eliminating unlikely explanations for human behavior.
The term stupidity can be generalized by replacing it with false believe/assumption. Take any example of something you think as immoral. You can always find something that you think is false in the believe of someone who commit that immoral thing.
« Last Edit: 07/03/2021 07:12:30 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1228 on: 07/03/2021 08:46:57 »
How bad data keeps us from good AI | Mainak Mazumdar
Quote
The future economy won't be built by people and factories, but by algorithms and artificial intelligence, says data scientist Mainak Mazumdar. But what happens when these algorithms get trained on biased data? Drawing on examples from Shanghai to New York City, Mazumdar shows how less-than-quality data leads to AI that makes wrong decisions and predictions -- and reveals three infrastructural resets needed to make ethical AI possible.


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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1229 on: 07/03/2021 08:48:27 »
Does Survival Explain Morality?
Quote
Greg Koukl was asked why the idea that “we develop morality out of our desire to survive” fails to stand as a basis for morality. But Scott Clifton joins me to discuss why Greg's attempt to find failure is itself a failure.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1230 on: 07/03/2021 20:23:04 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 06/03/2021 18:13:43
Some years ago I fitted an experimental electronic ignition system to my father's car. But it was done with his knowledge and consent, .died about two years later.

Well, as long as he consented to you experimenting with his car, how can you be held legally responsible for the fatal outcome.

Of course, from a moral viewpoint, shouldn't you have fitted the experimental system in your own car first?



 
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1231 on: 07/03/2021 23:59:14 »
The outcome wasn't fatal, just a bit embarrassing.

I did. His was the Mark 2.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1232 on: 08/03/2021 00:06:33 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 07/03/2021 01:43:10
Is there a hard line to tell if some action is evil or not? How can we tell if something is done with malice intention?
Not easy to state a general case but indicative symptoms are prior behavior, expressed intent, motive, prior history of conflict, religion, politics, and philosophy. Malice is generally aimed at a specific individual or group. Not mentioning MCAS in the operating  manual would be an unusual case of malicious intent to kill large numbers of random customers and bankrupt the company if and only if the system failed. 
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Offline charles1948

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1233 on: 08/03/2021 03:21:08 »
Do you think that people enjoy seeing other people get into trouble.  Especially when the person who gets into trouble is your  friend.  Don't you feel pleasure, when your friend gets into trouble?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1234 on: 08/03/2021 09:36:57 »
Quote from: charles1948 on 08/03/2021 03:21:08
Do you think that people enjoy seeing other people get into trouble.  Especially when the person who gets into trouble is your  friend.  Don't you feel pleasure, when your friend gets into trouble?
There are some people who do, such as pranksters and bullies. They have different levels of trouble they enjoy to inflict to other people. Some can feel those events as funny, some other disturbed, or even call them evil.
Physical harms or perhaps some psychological harms can be put as limiters for the jokes/pranks, hence they also depend on the strength of the victims.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1235 on: 08/03/2021 10:20:38 »
There's a more general answer. Why do people commit genocide, crusades, inquisitions, etc? Because they can. Politics and religion provide the excuse for bad behavior. Vague promises of everlasting life or bread and circuses have never been substantiated by history or evidence, but perverts can always rise to power by making them, as long as they include words like god or destiny. 

I don't think Boeing management were expecting to sit at the right hand of any particular deity, but I had a salutary warning from an architect. He arrived at a site progress meeting one Monday morning and announced to the assembled engineers, craftsmen, doctors and accountants that he had just returned from a visit to Auschwitz "which was built by people just like us."
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1236 on: 09/03/2021 13:56:23 »
From dictionary, malice means "the desire to harm someone; ill will".
It means that the harm is intentional, at least it's a part of the goal of malicious actions, rather than collateral damage.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1237 on: 09/03/2021 15:13:11 »
Even "collateral" implies an intent to damage something else.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1238 on: 09/03/2021 15:43:00 »
If that's the case, let's use another term to refer to unintended victims or consequences.
In non-malicious actions, less harm is more preferrable by the actor, and vice versa.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #1239 on: 09/03/2021 20:25:02 »
Primum non nocere has worked for centuries.
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