[Just thinking]

Maybe you can tell me if there is a universal moral standard and if so what that might be.

I've explained it here several times already, but since you are new in the discussion, I guess I'll try to explain it again in more refined and concise expressions. If you have some spare time, maybe you can check out my older posts. I guess it would be too long to be comfortably written in a single post, so let's start from the basics.

First we need to understand what a moral standard is, and what it is not.
 
Then we need to know why we need a moral standard. It's essentially asking what would happen if we don't have any moral standard, and why it would be bad or unpreferred.

The answer would give us the common goal we want to achieve from establishing the moral standards.

Then generalize that common goal to cover as much subjects as possible, which will bring us to the universal moral standard.

OK then based on your description I would suggest a standard that prescribes to not breaking the law and the standard would include the right to punish those that do. If that doesn't do it then you've got me stumped.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

OK then based on your description I would suggest a standard that prescribes to not breaking the law and the standard would include the right to punish those that do. If that doesn't do it then you've got me stumped.

Which law? North Koreans have laws too. So does Moses, Hammurabi, The Talibans. Even Nazis and ISIS have laws. At this point it seems like you've got stumped already. But don't worry, I'll explain the idea slowly, one point at a time.

[Just thinking]

OK then based on your description I would suggest a standard that prescribes to not breaking the law and the standard would include the right to punish those that do. If that doesn't do it then you've got me stumped.

Which law? North Koreans have laws too. So does Moses, Hammurabi, The Talibans. Even Nazis and ISIS have laws. At this point it seems like you've got stumped already. But don't worry, I'll explain the idea slowly, one point at a time.

Then we have a Delmore as I first stated there is no universal moral standard as you your self have just admitted standards are different all over the world there for I shall just stick with mine and everybody to there own but we must remember we are all anserable to the law of the land.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Then we have a Delmore as I first stated there is no universal moral standard as you your self have just admitted standards are different all over the world there for I shall just stick with mine and everybody to there own but we must remember we are all anserable to the law of the land.

If you are looking for difference among currently existing moral standards, then you'll get the difference. If you are looking for the universal moral standard, you should look for their similarities instead.

Is there something in common that at least most of currently existing moral standards have? Of course I have to exclude nihilism and moral relativism since by definition they are not compatible with the concept of universal moral standard. Including them would only creates contradiction.

[Just thinking]

Then we have a Delmore as I first stated there is no universal moral standard as you your self have just admitted standards are different all over the world there for I shall just stick with mine and everybody to there own but we must remember we are all anserable to the law of the land.

If you are looking for difference among currently existing moral standards, then you'll get the difference. If you are looking for the universal moral standard, you should look for their similarities instead.

Is there something in common that at least most of currently existing moral standards have? Of course I have to exclude nihilism and moral relativism since by definition they are not compatible with the concept of universal moral standard. Including them would only creates contradiction.

And that is my last point as there is no universal moral standard then contradiction rules.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

And that is my last point as there is no universal moral standard then contradiction rules.

Let's not jump into conclusion, and analyze the problem carefully, by answering the basic questions I've posted earlier one by one.

[Just thinking]

And that is my last point as there is no universal moral standard then contradiction rules.

Let's not jump into conclusion, and analyze the problem carefully, by answering the basic questions I've posted earlier one by one.

OK this has been interesting but I am getting a little bit dizzy we have gone round and round you win and I am a fool I thank you for your time and effort in taking me this far.

[Colin2B]

you win and I am a fool

I don’t think you are, but you have dropped into a very long and complex discussion with people who have been thinking about and discussing it for a while.
You would need to go to the beginning and work through - it’s complicated   

[Just thinking]

you win and I am a fool

I don’t think you are, but you have dropped into a very long and complex discussion with people who have been thinking about and discussing it for a while.
You would need to go to the beginning and work through - it’s complicated   

Very good try. Thank you but no thanks. I have my morals and I am very aware of others I can not validate the misgivings of others.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

OK this has been interesting but I am getting a little bit dizzy we have gone round and round you win and I am a fool I thank you for your time and effort in taking me this far.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience. I guess it would be better if I can dedicate a full time explaining this from start to the end, summarizing all we've discussed here. Unfortunately I can't do that. I can only spare a few minutes between my other things to read and write in this forum.
Let's start with the first step.

First we need to understand what a moral standard is, and what it is not.

By definition found in dictionaries, morality concerns about good and bad behavior. Good things are what we like, while bad things are disliked. Traditionally, like and dislike are determined by emotion. But as we get wiser, longer term consequences are taken more into considerations.

[Just thinking]

Quote, I am not tempted by what is not yours.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

you win and I am a fool

I don’t think you are, but you have dropped into a very long and complex discussion with people who have been thinking about and discussing it for a while.
You would need to go to the beginning and work through - it’s complicated   

It gets so long because I pursued the answers with as much rigor as I can get. I tried as far as possible to avoid making assumptions without necessities, as Rand's razor suggests. If an assumption is necessary, then rejecting it would inevitably lead to contradiction.

Also remember that unexpected results come from false assumptions. If all your assumptions are true, you'll only get results that you have expected. Even when they are not what you really want.

Much of the posts discuss about extreme cases, exceptions  and counterexamples, also clearing up disputes and misconceptions. The basic itself is pretty simple and straight forward, as I've compiled before into a few steps.

By Pareto rule, around 80% of problems come from 20% of causes. I think it's possible to summarize this thread into a few paragraphs without losing much of important points.

 

[Just thinking]

you win and I am a fool

I don’t think you are, but you have dropped into a very long and complex discussion with people who have been thinking about and discussing it for a while.
You would need to go to the beginning and work through - it’s complicated   

It gets so long because I pursued the answers with as much rigor as I can get. I tried as far as possible to avoid making assumptions without necessities, as Rand's razor suggests. If an assumption is necessary, then rejecting it would inevitably lead to contradiction.

Also remember that unexpected results come from false assumptions. If all your assumptions are true, you'll only get results that you have expected. Even when they are not what you really want.

Much of the posts discuss about extreme cases, exceptions  and counterexamples, also clearing up disputes and misconceptions. The basic itself is pretty simple and straight forward, as I've compiled before into a few steps.

By Pareto rule, around 80% of problems come from 20% of causes. I think it's possible to summarize this thread into a few paragraphs without losing much of important points.

 

Yes now I am a follower of yours you have convinced me we will be together to the end and at that point I will say goodby to my good friend. I thank you so so much for your teaching of this very important life lesson I have learned so much in such a short time I can never thank you enuff. peace be yours.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Much of the posts discuss about extreme cases, exceptions  and counterexamples, also clearing up disputes and misconceptions.

I'd like to add that at the beginning, we started with brainstorming, by collecting many ideas from various sources, including Wikipedia, Youtube, and other members. Then we scrutinize each one of them, looking for their strengths and weaknesses, as well as their limitations and extentions. Only after considering alternative possibilities, we can be more confident with our own ideas.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

By Pareto rule, around 80% of problems come from 20% of causes. I think it's possible to summarize this thread into a few paragraphs without losing much of important points.

Elon Musk rightly pointed out that understanding is an information compression process. We collect a lot of information, and then filter out false and insignificant bits to get the core ideas, and rearrange them into a compact and consistent structure. It can then be used to recreate the original data by adding assumptions as necessary based on applicable circumstances.
Ideas in Newton's Principia can be compressed into 3 laws of motion and axiom of universal gravitation following inverse square law. Maxwell's electromagnetic theory is summed up into four short equations.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Yes now I am a follower of yours you have convinced me we will be together to the end and at that point I will say goodby to my good friend. I thank you so so much for your teaching of this very important life lesson I have learned so much in such a short time I can never thank you enuff. peace be yours.

Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate your willingness to learn from others. We obviously need to learn from others' mistakes, since we won't have enough time to make them all by ourselves.

The tallest barrier between us and the truth is our own convictions that we've already found it. We also need to be aware of being hyper sceptic, where we refuse to accept the truth when we find one.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Let's start with the first step.

Continuing to finish the first step. Moral standards can be classified as memes,  which are information located in the minds of conscious entities, and have influence on their behavior. Not all memes are moral standard. There must be some defining characteristics that distinguish them from other memes.

Before continuing, I want to make distinction between moral standards and moral rules. Previously I often used them interchangeably. IMO, their similarity is that they are both algorithms used to distinguish good behaviors from the bad ones. Moral rules adress particular issues, while moral standards aim to more general and fundamental concepts that underlie those rules.

An example can be put forward to help understanding this distinction better. In ten Commandments, each one of them is a moral rule. The moral standard behind those rules is obeying commands from Moses' God. Based on this standard, obeying Moses' God is good, while defying Him is bad. From one of the commandments, we are told that not stealing is good, thus stealing is bad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

[Just thinking]

Let's start with the first step.

Continuing to finish the first step. Moral standards can be classified as memes,  which are information located in the minds of conscious entities, and have influence on their behavior. Not all memes are moral standard. There must be some defining characteristics that distinguish them from other memes.

Before continuing, I want to make distinction between moral standards and moral rules. Previously I often used them interchangeably. IMO, their similarity is that they are both algorithms used to distinguish good behaviors from the bad ones. Moral rules adress particular issues, while moral standards aim to more general and fundamental concepts that underlie those rules.

An example can be put forward to help understanding this distinction better. In ten Commandments, each one of them is a moral rule. The moral standard behind those rules is obeying commands from Moses' God. Based on this standard, obeying Moses' God is good, while defying Him is bad. From one of the commandments, we are told that not stealing is good, thus stealing is bad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

You really do appear to be genuine to this very interesting and what seems to be a complicated question. The problem I have with this is that I feel that I have already described the concept and understanding of this. Please forgive me as I am now on a ship and have a very limited connection not to mention I am under the standard of the ship's captain and he has his rules regarding the moral standards aboard his ship. I will make contact with you again in due time all the best.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Before continuing, I want to make distinction between moral standards and moral rules. Previously I often used them interchangeably. IMO, their similarity is that they are both algorithms used to distinguish good behaviors from the bad ones. Moral rules adress particular issues, while moral standards aim to more general and fundamental concepts that underlie those rules.

By the way, I haven't found a clear cut threshold to distinguish between moral rules and moral standards. How much generality is required to call it a moral standard instead of a moral rule? It may also depend on circumstances. It's like the threshold between black and white. Although the threshold can be fuzzy, but we can say that the darker it is, it's more likely to be called black, and vice versa. Similarly, the more specific it is, it's more likely to be called a moral rule.



In machine learning, the activation function often takes form of sigmoid curve. We can use similar approach here.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Wikipedia article equates moral standards and moral principles. So, they should be interchangeable with no issue.

Morality can be a body of standards or principles ...

the more specific it is, it's more likely to be called a moral rule.

But moral rules can't be too specific either. Otherwise, it would only be applicable in very limited situations, thus useless in most other situations, and lose its function as a guidance. Here is an example.

Stone the rape victim for not screaming for help
Deuteronomy 22:23-24
If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife.
You must purge the evil from among you.

http://literalbible.blogspot.com/2007/03/stone-rape-victim-for-not-screaming-for.html
The first sentence is too specific to become a moral rule. The last sentence may be qualify as a moral rule, or even a moral standard, but then we need to be more specific on how to interpret the word evil.