[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

When a society uses only approximation to the universal terminal goal, or some forms of instrumental goal instead of the real one, then any additional power  will amplify the effects of the discrepancies. And they are most likely undesired.

[alancalverd]

Would you opt for a life with no pain? - Hayley Levitt and Bethany Rickwald
It's basically what's being offered by most religions in afterlife for those who follow them.
Science and technology offer similar things, except that they can be done while we're alive.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Would you opt for a life with no pain? - Hayley Levitt and Bethany Rickwald
It's basically what's being offered by most religions in afterlife for those who follow them.
Science and technology offer similar things, except that they can be done while we're alive.

Death never becomes part of the requirements in science and technology.

[alancalverd]

You missed the point. Religions by definition offer things that cannot be done. Things that can be done are called engineering, medicine, farming, whatever....

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

You missed the point. Religions by definition offer things that cannot be done. Things that can be done are called engineering, medicine, farming, whatever....

Whose definition are you using?

re·li·gion: the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

[alancalverd]

Yep, that's the one!

Selling a nonexistent product to people who can't claim compensation because they won't know it doesn't exist until they are dead! Belief in someone or some group who is supposed to be in charge but for whose existence and activities there is no actual evidence.

It gets worse. Some religions sell the concept of an omnipotent omniscient controller who has determined everything, then suggest that you can  get him to change his mind by asking nicely, flagellating yourself,  or butchering a virgin. 

It's sometimes difficult to distinguish between religion and pornography.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

It's sometimes difficult to distinguish between religion and pornography.

Does it make them immoral?

[alancalverd]

Pornography is defined as "that which tends to deprave or corrupt". Anything that induces a person to harm or degrade another fits the bill in my view, and harm surely includes contradicting rational thought.

Most people enjoy a bit of porn (test 1) but wouldn't admit to inflicting it on their children (test 2). So it's immoral. Some people get a feeling of religious ecstacy, but wouldn't enjoy being criticised for worshipping the wrong god, or seeing their children killed for the same "reason". So it's immoral.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Pornography is defined as "that which tends to deprave or corrupt". Anything that induces a person to harm or degrade another fits the bill in my view, and harm surely includes contradicting rational thought.

You seem to have your own definition for English words.
Here's the definition I got from Google.

printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings.

And merriam-webster.

1: the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2: material (such as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement
3: the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction

Most people enjoy a bit of porn (test 1) but wouldn't admit to inflicting it on their children (test 2). So it's immoral. Some people get a feeling of religious ecstacy, but wouldn't enjoy being criticised for worshipping the wrong god, or seeing their children killed for the same "reason". So it's immoral.

Some people would admit to inflicting it on their children. On what ground would you call them immoral?

[alancalverd]

My definition comes from English statute law. It's a powerful one because it concerns the effect of the material, not the presumed intention of its creator, and can thus be tested long after the death of the author. It is also broader than the Google or Webster definitions because it can include depictions of violence.

There's a neat distinction between erotic and pornographic: it's the difference between being tickled with a feather and slapped with a whole chicken.

[alancalverd]

Some people would admit to inflicting it on their children. On what ground would you call them immoral?

The one thing all religions have in common is that they teach you to despise all the others. That's depraved and corrupt.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Some people would admit to inflicting it on their children. On what ground would you call them immoral?

The one thing all religions have in common is that they teach you to despise all the others. That's depraved and corrupt.

Does it include Buddhism and Jainism?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Immorality often involves ignorance or false convictions  which causes someone to have wrong priorities. Take any action or behavior that you think is immoral. You can always find something which is believed by the perpetrator that you think is false.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The one thing all religions have in common is that they teach you to despise all the others. That's depraved and corrupt.

We can analyze religions like any other memes. The fact that some of them have survived for millenias suggests that they have some benefits for their societies, which outweigh their cost and flaws. One of their main benefits has been identified centuries ago.

On March 4, 1806, during a meeting of the national committee Napoleon said:

“Je ne vois pas dans la religion le mystère de l'Incarnation mais le mystère de l'Ordre Social. La religion rattache au ciel une idée d'égalité qui empêche le riche d'être massacré par le pauvre."

 translation: “I don’t see in religion evidence of the mystery of the incarnation, but rather the mystery of social order. Religion associates heaven with an idea of equality that keeps the rich from being massacred by the poor.”

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The one thing all religions have in common is that they teach you to despise all the others. That's depraved and corrupt.

We can analyze religions like any other memes. The fact that some of them have survived for millenias suggests that they have some benefits for their societies, which outweigh their cost and flaws. One of their main benefits has been identified centuries ago.

On March 4, 1806, during a meeting of the national committee Napoleon said:

“Je ne vois pas dans la religion le mystère de l'Incarnation mais le mystère de l'Ordre Social. La religion rattache au ciel une idée d'égalité qui empêche le riche d'être massacré par le pauvre."

 translation: “I don’t see in religion evidence of the mystery of the incarnation, but rather the mystery of social order. Religion associates heaven with an idea of equality that keeps the rich from being massacred by the poor.”

Social disorder is not the only threat to the existence of conscious beings. There's another threat, which is natural disorder or catastrophe. The benefit of social order brought by religion would be overshadowed by its cost of inability to build protection against natural disorders. For example, if religion hinders scientific progress which makes the society incapable of preventing extinction by asteroid impact or global pandemic.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Texas Bans Abortion And Idiots Blame The Left

Many things we see as immoral actions only become obvious retrospectively. They are caused by miscalculation of risks.

[alancalverd]

Religion is what gives perverts the presumed authority to interfere in the lives of others. I'd be happy to be governed by a parliament of ex-professionals (soldiers, doctors, businessmen, trade union officers....)  deemed worthy by popular vote to represent their constituents. As soon as you allow parasites like priests and career politicians to stand and represent their party or professed beliefs, you get bad government.

[alancalverd]

Does it include Buddhism and Jainism?

It certainly describes the adherents I have met.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Religion is what gives perverts the presumed authority to interfere in the lives of others.

So do other ideologies like communism, capitalism, liberalism,  anarchism.
The CDC had to interfere in people's lives with vaccine and mask mandates to minimize the impact of the pandemic.

[alancalverd]

Difference is that most of the cited isms involve a degree of implicit or explicit public consultation and approval based on clear potential advantages. CDC is publicly accountable. Mullahs and bishops are not.

The general rule of a civilised society is that some form of parliament or soviet decides what should be prohibited for the public good. Anything that is not prohibited is permitted, and your duties are limited to paying taxes, sitting on a jury, or being liable for military service. If you don't like a decision, you can write to the newspapers or appeal to a court of your peers.

Theocracies (including many European countries) work the other way around: you have all sorts of duties (some imposed by the rights of others) and can only do what is permitted. You have no right to question or challenge the authority of whoever says he has read the book and been anointed by some mythical being.