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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2240 on: 12/12/2021 21:14:28 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 12/12/2021 12:53:10
People survive by outwitting, militarily defeating, or making a compromise with  those of a different gullibility. Could be a  religious difference or a political one - they are almost inseparable in some places. Life would be a lot less stressful if folk were less gullible and recognised parasites for what they are.
It doesn't tell why gullible people survived.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2241 on: 12/12/2021 21:29:22 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 12/12/2021 20:22:12
Human rights are generally a Bad Thing, or at least a reflection of what is wrong with a society.

In a civilised society the population determines what is unacceptable and makes laws to prevent and punish unacceptable behavior - a legal code based on wrongs.
Is it acceptable to let old and sick people die?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2242 on: 12/12/2021 21:33:31 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 12/12/2021 12:53:10
Life would be a lot less stressful if folk were less gullible and recognised parasites for what they are.
Are babies and toddlers parasites? Why or why not?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2243 on: 12/12/2021 21:49:26 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 12/12/2021 20:22:12
a legal code based on wrongs.
In information security, we can use we call it black list approach. Antiviruses fall into this category. It's vulnerable to unknown threats.
The stricter and more secure approach is white list. It only allow requests from known listed sources. It's vulnerable from failing to function when there's a necessary operation not yet included in the list.
A compromised alternative is using heuristic approach.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2244 on: 12/12/2021 22:01:42 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 12/12/2021 20:22:12
There is very little need for rights as the State is subject to the same laws and exists to serve the citizen. The basic rights to vote for your representatives, who form the government, and to a fair trial if  accused of wrongdoing, are pretty much all that is required.
What if all rights are revoked?
Who run the state? Aren't they humans?
You often make random assertions without showing how they are necessary.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2245 on: 13/12/2021 13:01:29 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/12/2021 21:14:28
It doesn't tell why gullible people survived.
Because they were more resilient than other gullible people. Nothing to do with Jaweh vs Baal, but much to do with good military planning and execution despite whatever gullibility existed.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2246 on: 13/12/2021 13:05:01 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/12/2021 22:01:42
What if all rights are revoked?
Until the UK joined the EU, we had very few rights - indeed not much more than were granted by Magna Carta in 1215. So we survived for about 850 years and ruled most of the world, with practically none.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2247 on: 13/12/2021 13:09:19 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/12/2021 21:29:22
Is it acceptable to let old and sick people die?
If they wish to die, it is immoral to keep them alive. Even if you ignore morality you will eventually run out of medical options. 
What is not acceptable in a civilised society is to ration medical services according to the patient's financial assets rather than clinical needs.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2248 on: 13/12/2021 14:30:52 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/12/2021 13:05:01
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/12/2021 22:01:42
What if all rights are revoked?
Until the UK joined the EU, we had very few rights - indeed not much more than were granted by Magna Carta in 1215. So we survived for about 850 years and ruled most of the world, with practically none.
There's a significant difference between a few and none.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2249 on: 13/12/2021 14:35:29 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/12/2021 13:09:19
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/12/2021 21:29:22
Is it acceptable to let old and sick people die?
If they wish to die, it is immoral to keep them alive. Even if you ignore morality you will eventually run out of medical options. 
What is not acceptable in a civilised society is to ration medical services according to the patient's financial assets rather than clinical needs.
If they want to stay alive, are others obliged to help them?
« Last Edit: 13/12/2021 21:39:15 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2250 on: 13/12/2021 21:43:11 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/12/2021 21:33:31
Quote from: alancalverd on 12/12/2021 12:53:10
Life would be a lot less stressful if folk were less gullible and recognised parasites for what they are.
Are babies and toddlers parasites? Why or why not?
Most people don't think so, and think of them as investment instead. They used up resources now in order to generate resources in the future. No society can survive without investing in their future generations.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2251 on: 13/12/2021 21:53:13 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/12/2021 13:51:42
The Good Delusion | What's The Closest We Can Get To Objective Ethics?
The arguments in video sound reasonable. But it's unfortunate that the speaker doesn't continue to reason up why avoiding pain and seeking for pleasure are good. They seem to be taken for granted.
I've pointed out before that they are good for helping conscious agents to survive. Pain and pleasure act as meta rewards in sparse feedback systems like life. Without them, before the agents develop long term reasoning, the alternative would be random actions, which are not very effective nor efficient.
« Last Edit: 14/12/2021 09:32:52 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2252 on: 14/12/2021 14:48:42 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/12/2021 21:43:11
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 12/12/2021 21:33:31
Quote from: alancalverd on 12/12/2021 12:53:10
Life would be a lot less stressful if folk were less gullible and recognised parasites for what they are.
Are babies and toddlers parasites? Why or why not?
Most people don't think so, and think of them as investment instead. They used up resources now in order to generate resources in the future. No society can survive without investing in their future generations.

In currently existing life forms, future generation means different individuals than currently existing ones. Scientific progress happen one funeral at a time, as a scientist said. But it doesn't have to be that way. It's predicted that someone who will live for a thousand years has already been alive today.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/07/2021 10:05:34
The only similarity applicable to every conscious being, regardless of their shape, form, size, and ingredients, is that they want to extend the existence of consciousness further into the future.
« Last Edit: 14/12/2021 20:39:20 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2253 on: 15/12/2021 17:16:11 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/12/2021 21:43:11
No society can survive without investing in their future generations.
Society is unimportant. People matter.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2254 on: 15/12/2021 19:22:21 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 15/12/2021 17:16:11
Society is unimportant. People matter.
What count as a people?
In a multicellular organisms, each cell has lost its independence, and depends on the survival of the organism as a whole.
Same things happen to individual members of social organisms.
Protecting individuals is an instrumental goal to preserve the society as a whole.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2255 on: 16/12/2021 13:07:42 »
Not "a" people, but people - things like you and me. "A" people tend to make war on "another" people because they are told that they are different and therefore a threat. The concept is immoral.

When society as a whole decides to eliminate certain members because they are somehow "different", protecting individual members of that minority is morally imperative but clearly not conducive to the preservation of the society as a whole.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2256 on: 17/12/2021 12:19:11 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/12/2021 13:07:42
Not "a" people, but people - things like you and me. "A" people tend to make war on "another" people because they are told that they are different and therefore a threat. The concept is immoral.
Which concept?
Why so?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2257 on: 17/12/2021 12:26:00 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/12/2021 13:07:42
When society as a whole decides to eliminate certain members because they are somehow "different", protecting individual members of that minority is morally imperative but clearly not conducive to the preservation of the society as a whole.
It depends on what's the difference that they have. How that difference affects the other members of the society.
Imagine a society of passengers of a flying commercial airplane. A few member are found drilling the cabin wall. Persuasion didn't work.
« Last Edit: 17/12/2021 13:32:35 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2258 on: 17/12/2021 23:27:14 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/12/2021 12:19:11
Which concept?
Why so?
The concept of "a" people, for the reason stated.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2259 on: 17/12/2021 23:29:29 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/12/2021 12:26:00
It depends on what's the difference that they have.
I specifically referred to what they are, not what they do. Civilised laws criminalise actions, superstitions criminalise appearance, parentage, etc.
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