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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2660 on: 26/07/2022 14:36:22 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/07/2022 11:36:48
There is no concept of "violation" under my scheme.
Just say that someone gets pregnant without license.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2661 on: 26/07/2022 14:39:02 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/07/2022 11:36:48
the state already has means in place for dealing with neglect.
Jail time or social services?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2662 on: 26/07/2022 14:53:59 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/07/2022 11:36:48
Migrant workers are essential to agriculture and visiting students clearly gain more from the experience if they can earn money during their stay.
Until robots take over their jobs and vertical farming using GMO becomes more efficient than traditional way. It's not a matter of if, it's just when.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2663 on: 26/07/2022 22:43:30 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 26/07/2022 14:39:02
Jail time or social services?
Both, as you well know.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2664 on: 26/07/2022 22:48:04 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 26/07/2022 14:36:22
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/07/2022 11:36:48
There is no concept of "violation" under my scheme.
Just say that someone gets pregnant without license.
There is no "license". You get paid if you are not pregnant. That's all there is to it. Oddly enough, at least one US state (Georgia?) actually ran a project to curb teenage pregnancy by offering schoolgirls a dollar a day for not being pregnant. If it's good enough for a Republican state in a third world country, it's good enough for the UK.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2665 on: 26/07/2022 23:08:15 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 26/07/2022 14:53:59
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/07/2022 11:36:48
Migrant workers are essential to agriculture and visiting students clearly gain more from the experience if they can earn money during their stay.
Until robots take over their jobs and vertical farming using GMO becomes more efficient than traditional way. It's not a matter of if, it's just when.
So that's one less administrative problem to cope with. Up to the farmer to decide how many people he needs and when, and to offer an attractive rate of pay plus a per capita overhead to fund the state-run admin and accommodation scheme.  Or invest in automation. Problem with partial automation is that you are making a large investment in, say, a harvester that you only need for one or two weeks in the year, and if it rains, your harvester can't be redeployed to clear the drains or paint the barn. People are inefficient but very flexible!

The progress of Ocado, from a Waitrose hand-picked delivery service to a totally automated warehouse, has been impressive, but that's a 24/7/365 operation. I've seen some clever 3D imaging systems for identifying and cutting ripe cauliflowers, and a very neat gadget that plants, weeds, feeds and harvests individual high-value stem crops on a conventional flat field because it knows exactly where it put every seed. 
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2666 on: 27/07/2022 08:48:09 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/07/2022 22:48:04
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 26/07/2022 14:36:22
Quote from: alancalverd on 26/07/2022 11:36:48
There is no concept of "violation" under my scheme.
Just say that someone gets pregnant without license.
There is no "license". You get paid if you are not pregnant. That's all there is to it. Oddly enough, at least one US state (Georgia?) actually ran a project to curb teenage pregnancy by offering schoolgirls a dollar a day for not being pregnant. If it's good enough for a Republican state in a third world country, it's good enough for the UK.
Just say that someone gets pregnant but can't afford to raise the child.
What should be done to her?
What should be done to the fetus?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2667 on: 27/07/2022 10:45:30 »
Whatever she wants. It's her body. Except in the USA, of course, where she will be forced to carry to term and give birth to an unwanted child that she can't support.

Remember I'm only talking about a civilised society (the UK) where contraception and abortion are legal, rape is a crime, and pregnancy doesn't occur by magic.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2668 on: 01/08/2022 10:20:43 »
https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/amygdala-damage-moral-judgment/
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Amygdala damage impairs moral judgment
Patients with amygdala damage rejected the widely accepted answer to the infamous "trolley problem," saying that it "hurts too much."

KEY TAKEAWAYS
Our sense of morality is inextricably linked to our brains. Many patients with Urbach-Weithe disease (UWD) have damage to a brain structure called the amygdala, an almond-shaped structure popularly known as the "fear center." UWD patients exhibited a breakdown of moral utilitarian judgment on the infamous trolley car problem, frequently choosing to save one person instead of thousands of others.

Jack van Honk of Utrecht University in the Netherlands and his colleagues examined five South African patients with Urbach-Weithe Disease (UWD), a rare inherited condition that causes an accumulation of calcium salts in the skin and soft tissues, making them hardened and shrivelled. Approximately 400 cases of this disease have been documented to date, more than half of whom have damage to a brain structure called the amygdala.

The amygdala is a small, almond-shaped structure that is known to be involved in emotional processing and is popularly referred to as the brain’s “fear center.” Previous studies of patient S.M., a 50-year-old woman who developed UWD as a child, showed that she cannot recognize emotions in the facial expressions of others and does not experience fear when exposed to live snakes, spiders, haunted houses, and horror films.

Subsequent research showed, however, that inhalation of 35% carbon dioxide can evoke fear and panic attacks in S.M. and two other UWD patients, suggesting that while the amygdala seems crucial for fear triggered by external threats, other brain mechanisms are responsible for internally triggered fear.

The complex neuroscience of morality
A study published last year showed that while S.M. and several other UWD patients cannot predict fear in others, they deem it impermissible to cause others fear, leading the researchers to conclude that although social emotion recognition and morality may be related, they are distinct from one another.

The authors of the new study suggest that heightened sensitivity to social pain may play a role in their patients’ inability to make moral judgments. In interviews, the patients stated that they had understood both the actions required of them and their outcomes, but decided not to sacrifice the individual because it was too upsetting and “hurts too much.”
The goal of a morality is to make its subjects behave more desirably, overcoming their internal tendencies, bias, and emotions. In the case where the subjects are functionally limited/unable to perform required tasks or to take a responsibility, then they should not be given the responsibility in the first place, which is regulated by some rules.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2669 on: 04/09/2022 14:37:48 »
Becoming the Villain
responding to the most evil business in the world.
Quote
This video is an opinion and in no way should be construed as statements of fact. Scams, bad business opportunities, and fake gurus are subjective terms that mean different things to different people. I think someone who promises $100K/month for an upfront fee of $2K is a scam. Others would call it a Napoleon Hill pitch.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2670 on: 05/09/2022 23:12:49 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/08/2022 10:20:43
Subsequent research showed, however, that inhalation of 35% carbon dioxide can evoke fear and panic attacks in S.M. and two other UWD patients,
and probably everyone else. Autonomic breathing turns to hyperventilation and panic as CO2 levels rise, in all animals.

It's the reason for rebreathing in oxygen and anesthetic masks, and why mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is so effective - a bit of CO2 stimulates inhalation.   
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2671 on: 17/09/2022 07:03:12 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 05/09/2022 23:12:49
and probably everyone else. Autonomic breathing turns to hyperventilation and panic as CO2 levels rise, in all animals.
I don't know if tardigrades suffer similar thing.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2672 on: 17/09/2022 07:09:38 »
New Rule: A Unified Theory of Wokeness | Real Time with Bill Maher (HBO)
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It's time to stop judging everyone in the past by the standards of the present.
Commonly accepted moral standards and rules have been changing. But they are only instrumental goals. The universal terminal goal is always the same.
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Offline Origin

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2673 on: 17/09/2022 15:36:55 »
No.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2674 on: 28/09/2022 13:50:42 »
Quote from: Origin on 17/09/2022 15:36:55
No.
It seems like you need to learn to improve your argumentations skill.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2675 on: 28/09/2022 14:17:58 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/09/2022 13:50:42
It seems like you need to learn to improve your argumentations skill.
No need to argue, the obvious answer is no.
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Offline JesWade21

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2676 on: 29/09/2022 08:35:22 »
This sort of inquiry has been considered by many philosophers. The answer to this question hinges on how you characterise morality. That morality can't exist apart from religion is an opinion shared by some, while others hold that religion is neither relative nor relative truth. Thus, a set of universal moral principles follows from that framework.

Leaving a religious worldview for a secular one can make life more challenging. There have been philosophical systems proposed that seem to describe a universal morality but aren't actually followed by anyone.

As illustrations: Utilitarianism, the belief that society should aim to maximise the sum of people's happiness, is widely attributed to John Stuart Mill. In his discussion of the veil of ignorance, Rawls proposed that a just society is one in which its members agree on how each other should be treated before any of them have any idea of their actual circumstances. According to Nozick, morality is doing whatever you want without interference from your society so long as you aren't intentionally hurting others. One could continue listing...
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2677 on: 29/09/2022 11:27:11 »
Quote from: Origin on 28/09/2022 14:17:58
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/09/2022 13:50:42
It seems like you need to learn to improve your argumentations skill.
No need to argue, the obvious answer is no.
If you can't explain your reasoning, it's more likely that your decision/position is based on instinct, feeling, emotion, intuition, or just following the crowd, instead of rational/critical thinking.
« Last Edit: 29/09/2022 11:29:28 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2678 on: 29/09/2022 11:33:14 »
Quote from: JesWade21 on 29/09/2022 08:35:22
This sort of inquiry has been considered by many philosophers. The answer to this question hinges on how you characterise morality. That morality can't exist apart from religion is an opinion shared by some, while others hold that religion is neither relative nor relative truth. Thus, a set of universal moral principles follows from that framework.

Leaving a religious worldview for a secular one can make life more challenging. There have been philosophical systems proposed that seem to describe a universal morality but aren't actually followed by anyone.

As illustrations: Utilitarianism, the belief that society should aim to maximise the sum of people's happiness, is widely attributed to John Stuart Mill. In his discussion of the veil of ignorance, Rawls proposed that a just society is one in which its members agree on how each other should be treated before any of them have any idea of their actual circumstances. According to Nozick, morality is doing whatever you want without interference from your society so long as you aren't intentionally hurting others. One could continue listing...
In previous posts, many classic schools of morality have been discussed and their limitations have been identified. Those limitations shows that they are not universal.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2679 on: 29/09/2022 11:42:42 »
A guide to surviving humanity’s tipping point | Ari Wallach
Quote
Futurist Ari Wallach asks, “how do you want to be remembered?”

Humans have a "lifetime bias." When we plan ahead, we do so by thinking in terms of years and decades rather than centuries and millennia.

We need to escape this short-term thinking if we want to be great ancestors to the generations of humans that will come after us.

One way to do so is through transgenerational empathy, by which we reconcile ourselves with the past in order to focus on the attributes that we want to pass on to the next generation.

This video is part of The Progress Issue, a Big Think and Freethink special collaboration.

In this inaugural special issue we set out to explore progress — how it happens, how we nurture it and how we stifle it, and what changes are required in how we approach our most serious problems to ensure greater and more equitable progress for all.


Basically, existing moralities are methods which our thinker ancestors came up with to help their peers to overcome shortsightedness. When we view them with the advantage of hindsight and more accurate and precise information, we can see their shortcomings.
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