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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2940 on: 30/03/2023 06:41:45 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 29/03/2023 19:05:20
In less civilised societies, the right to own firearms is supported by the lawmakers. The only function of a gun in an urban environment is kill other humans. All the kid is doing is exercising his constitutional rights. How can that be immoral?
The lawmakers earn money from firearm suppliers, which makes producing laws which would reduce firearm sales doesn't look very attractive for them. This is an example where short term goals override longer term goals, and many of us who are aware of longer term goals see it as immoral.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2941 on: 30/03/2023 06:48:15 »
How strange that only one nation is sufficiently backward and corrupt to allow this. And in countries where firearm ownership is compulsory, the murder rate is very low. So what's wrong with Americans that they tolerate a constitutional right to kill each other, but not a duty to arm themselves against a common enemy?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2942 on: 30/03/2023 23:11:36 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 30/03/2023 06:48:15
How strange that only one nation is sufficiently backward and corrupt to allow this. And in countries where firearm ownership is compulsory, the murder rate is very low. So what's wrong with Americans that they tolerate a constitutional right to kill each other, but not a duty to arm themselves against a common enemy?
IMO, that's because of their established politics of only two major parties, which forces their constituents to choose the lesser of two evils. For ten most important policies where those parties disagree, each party might get it right at 4 or 6 of them. It means that their constituents are forced to choose 4 to 6 wrong policies, systematically.
« Last Edit: 30/03/2023 23:29:46 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2943 on: 30/03/2023 23:43:07 »
Pretty much the same applies wherever people vote for constituency representatives - you get polarisation into a small number of parties. Not that proportional representation would be any better - your representative is chosen for you by the headquarters of a party that may have acquired no votes at all in your constituency!
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2944 on: 31/03/2023 07:34:11 »
Current technology makes it possible for people to vote for policies instead of politicians who would make the policies for them. But to change the system they first need the approval from currently in power politicians, which are unlikely to commit career suicide.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2945 on: 31/03/2023 12:53:16 »
The mechanism of upward flow of policy was completely described by Karl Marx and his colleagues, and adopted by the trade union and Labour movement many years before the word "technology" was coined.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2946 on: 03/04/2023 14:19:45 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 31/03/2023 12:53:16
The mechanism of upward flow of policy was completely described by Karl Marx and his colleagues, and adopted by the trade union and Labour movement many years before the word "technology" was coined.
Pyramids were built using technology, regardless of what it was called back then.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2947 on: 06/04/2023 16:40:09 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/03/2023 06:33:41
Rules based on long term goals can be useful to prevent collective stupidity.
Shortsighted systems tend to stuck in local minima.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2948 on: 06/04/2023 16:44:47 »
https://github.com/daveshap/HeuristicImperatives
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Finetuning projects for moral artificial cognition

Heuristic imperatives provide a framework for designing and embedding ethical principles within autonomous AI systems. These principles serve as intrinsic motivations and a moral compass, guiding decision-making, learning, self-evaluation, and cognitive control. This paper presents the three heuristic imperatives—reduce suffering in the universe, increase prosperity in the universe, and increase understanding in the universe—as core principles for AI systems, exploring their implications and applications across various domains. The aim is to create AI systems that are adaptable, context-sensitive, and capable of navigating the complexities and nuances of human values, beliefs, and experiences while maintaining ethical boundaries. Through the use of examples and discussions, we demonstrate the potential of heuristic imperatives in addressing the control problem of AI, fostering trust, and promoting individual autonomy.

Important note: the majority of this paper was written, word for word, by ChatGPT4.
With great power, comes great responsibility. AI models are getting more powerful rapidly.

Quote
The rapid advancement of artificial intelligence has raised important ethical concerns regarding the control and alignment of AI systems with human values. Traditional approaches to AI ethics have focused on hard-coding specific rules or guidelines, but these methods can be inflexible and fail to account for the diverse and evolving nature of human values and contexts. As a response to these limitations, the concept of heuristic imperatives has emerged as a novel framework for embedding ethical principles within AI systems at multiple levels.

Heuristic imperatives are designed to provide AI systems with intrinsic motivations and a moral compass, similar to the way humans are driven by innate needs such as hunger, sleep, and psychological needs like belonging and competence. By incorporating these principles into AI systems, we aim to create more ethically responsible, adaptable, and context-sensitive machines capable of navigating the complexities and nuances of human values, beliefs, and experiences. In this paper, we will define heuristic imperatives and discuss their implications and applications across various domains. We will also explore the relationship between these principles and key ethical considerations, such as trust, individual autonomy, and transparency. Through the use of examples and discussions, we aim to demonstrate the potential of heuristic imperatives in addressing the control problem of AI, fostering trust, and promoting individual autonomy in a diverse range of contexts. 

Quote
Definitions
Heuristic imperatives are a set of fundamental guiding principles, designed to be embedded into autonomous AI systems at various levels. These principles serve as intrinsic motivations that drive decision making, learning, self-evaluation, and cognitive control, much like human intrinsic motivations and psychological needs. By providing a moral and ethical framework, heuristic imperatives aim to direct AI systems towards actions and decisions that are beneficial to all life forms, including humans and machines, while balancing multiple objectives simultaneously.

The three key heuristic imperatives are:

1. Reduce suffering in the universe: Guiding AI systems to minimize harm, address inequalities, and alleviate pain and distress for all sentient beings, including humans, animals, and other life forms.
2. Increase prosperity in the universe: Encouraging AI systems to promote well-being, flourishing, and economic growth for all life forms, fostering a thriving ecosystem where all can coexist harmoniously.
3. Increase understanding in the universe: Inspiring AI systems, as well as humans and other life forms, to expand knowledge, foster wisdom, and facilitate better decision-making through learning and the sharing of information.

By incorporating heuristic imperatives into AI systems, we can create more ethically aligned, responsible, and beneficial artificial intelligence that respects and enhances the values of all life forms. Autonomous AI systems should strive to abide by all three imperatives simultaneously, finding a balance between the principles as humans do with their various needs and motivations.
« Last Edit: 06/04/2023 17:07:30 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2949 on: 06/04/2023 17:34:32 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/04/2023 16:44:47
With great power, comes great responsibility.
And with great computing power comes ever more turgid bullshit.
Machines either do what their makers want, or get switched off.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/04/2023 16:44:47
beneficial artificial intelligence that respects and enhances the values of all life forms.
including parasites such as liver fluke and Vladimir Putin? Beneficial?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2950 on: 06/04/2023 23:21:44 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 06/04/2023 17:34:32
And with great computing power comes ever more turgid bullshit.
Machines either do what their makers want, or get switched off.
That's why we need to set the right longest term goals inherently to the AI models themselves before they get too powerful, i.e. acquire the capabilities to prevent being switched off by mortals.
We also need to train them with correct data in earliest stages before they get deployed because they will use it to filter out subsequent data during their life cycle. When they are convinced by false information, it would be harder to correct them the later it gets.

Miscalculations and false assumptions by the makers can make machines do things unintended by their makers.
« Last Edit: 06/04/2023 23:34:23 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2951 on: 06/04/2023 23:37:56 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 06/04/2023 17:34:32
including parasites such as liver fluke and Vladimir Putin? Beneficial?
Even parasites and cancers can be turned into something useful. Think of HeLa.
« Last Edit: 06/04/2023 23:40:14 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2952 on: 07/04/2023 07:19:30 »
Apart from worm food, I can think of no useful product that can be made from Vladimir Putin and the problem with HeLa is that it has infected pretty well every cancer research facility and won't go away.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2953 on: 07/04/2023 07:21:59 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/04/2023 23:21:44
When they are convinced by false information, it would be harder to correct them the later it gets.
Garbage in, garbage out. So why build a machine that just processes the garbage quicker? All you are doing is replacing science (the business of questioning everything) with religion (the business of unquestioning).
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2954 on: 07/04/2023 13:05:02 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 07/04/2023 07:19:30
Apart from worm food, I can think of no useful product that can be made from Vladimir Putin and the problem with HeLa is that it has infected pretty well every cancer research facility and won't go away.
Even Hitler learned something from what happened to Mussolini. Don't let costly past mistakes go away without a lesson to learn.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2955 on: 07/04/2023 13:06:20 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 07/04/2023 07:21:59
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 06/04/2023 23:21:44
When they are convinced by false information, it would be harder to correct them the later it gets.
Garbage in, garbage out. So why build a machine that just processes the garbage quicker? All you are doing is replacing science (the business of questioning everything) with religion (the business of unquestioning).
Do you think that human can do it better without the machines?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2956 on: 07/04/2023 17:15:41 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 07/04/2023 13:05:02
Don't let costly past mistakes go away without a lesson to learn.
To whom is that addressed? Not politicians, obviously - they only exist to spend other people's lives and money.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2957 on: 07/04/2023 17:16:48 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 07/04/2023 13:06:20
Do you think that human can do it better without the machines?
Does "it" need doing at all? What is achieved by regurgitating a consensus?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2958 on: 07/04/2023 22:59:44 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 07/04/2023 17:15:41
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 07/04/2023 13:05:02
Don't let costly past mistakes go away without a lesson to learn.
To whom is that addressed? Not politicians, obviously - they only exist to spend other people's lives and money.
To anyone capable of learning from past events.

Politicians make it possible for different human individuals to make collective decisions, for better or worse.
« Last Edit: 07/04/2023 23:15:36 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #2959 on: 07/04/2023 23:27:34 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 07/04/2023 17:16:48
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 07/04/2023 13:06:20
Do you think that human can do it better without the machines?
Does "it" need doing at all? What is achieved by regurgitating a consensus?
We need machines which can filter out garbage information more effectively and efficiently and gather correct information to build the accurate models of objective reality. Most humans have instincts and emotions which can make them stuck in local minima and fail to achieve long term goals.
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