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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3500 on: 13/12/2023 04:54:53 »

Quote from: alancalverd on 12/12/2023 08:26:42
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/12/2023 02:54:22
or they are unable to detect and decipher the plans of their enemies, which means they are not that intelligent.
Or the enemy's security is better than you think. Never underestimate your enemy, but be prepared to sacrifice everything to overwhelm him.
Israel Knew About Oct. 7 Attacks Over A YEAR AGO! ? NY Times
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3501 on: 13/12/2023 05:52:52 »
Google Bard refuses to answer questions about situation in Israel and Gaza. But traditional Google search still gives some answers.
Could Israel have prevented Hamas? October 7th attack?
Quote
I spoke to Ronen Bergman and Adam Goldman, the New York Times writers who penned a recent article "Israel Knew Hamas?s Attack Plan More Than A Year Ago." They explain that Israel?s failure to prevent Oct. 7 attack was due to three main things: misunderstanding of intent, misjudgment of capabilities, and lack of reliable intelligence.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3502 on: 13/12/2023 08:36:51 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/12/2023 05:52:52
Could Israel have prevented Hamas? October 7th attack?
Apparently not. 
Quote
They explain that Israel?s failure to prevent Oct. 7 attack was due to three main things: misunderstanding of intent, misjudgment of capabilities, and lack of reliable intelligence.
You can't use assets you haven't got.
Next question?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3503 on: 14/12/2023 13:33:15 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/12/2023 08:36:51
You can't use assets you haven't got.
Which assets?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3504 on: 14/12/2023 15:14:47 »
knowledge of enemy intent (short term - their publicised longterm intent is the complete destruction of Israel), current capabilities, and credible intelligence.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3505 on: 15/12/2023 09:42:37 »
The 10 Stages of Genocide

Quote
The 10 stages of genocide have been observed and described by Dr Gregory Stanton as a framework to understand how crimes against humanity happen. The framework is supposed to help us spot early warning signs and potentially prevent a human catastrophe.

00:00 Introduction to genocide
00:46 Stage 1: Classification
01:03 Stage 2: Symbolization
01:17 Stage 3: Discrimination
01:36 Stage 4: Dehumanization
01:52 Stage 5: Organization
02:11 Stage 6: Polarization
02:30 Stage 7: Preparation
02:46 Stage 8: Persecution
03:03 Stage 9: Extermination
03:20 Stage 10: Denial
03:36 Aftermath and accountability
03:58 Dr. Gregory Stanton
04:30 What do you think?
04:50 Patron credits
04:59 Ending
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3506 on: 15/12/2023 14:20:02 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/12/2023 05:31:41
Can universal morality exist?
Quote
Joshua and Ryan discuss if it's possible to achieve universal morality with mathematical physicist, economist, and podcaster Eric Weinstein.
IMO, Eric has a good starting point, and he was close to discover the universal morality.
Morality puts a boundary between in group and out group. The universal morality puts the largest boundary logically possible, which is between conscious entities and non-conscious entities. Since consciousness is a continuous parameter, that boundary is necessarily gradual.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3507 on: 15/12/2023 16:41:49 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/12/2023 14:20:02
Morality puts a boundary between in group and out group.
No, it simply distinguishes between good and bad actions. It is entirely possible for an individual to act in both ways, though rarely at the same time.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3508 on: 15/12/2023 23:11:43 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 15/12/2023 16:41:49
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/12/2023 14:20:02
Morality puts a boundary between in group and out group.
No, it simply distinguishes between good and bad actions. It is entirely possible for an individual to act in both ways, though rarely at the same time.
Whenever you declare that something is good, you will inevitably be asked, good for whom?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3509 on: 16/12/2023 11:58:11 »
Obviously, the person making that judgement. Which is why there is no universal moral standard in a resource-limited environment. 
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3510 on: 17/12/2023 06:01:17 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/12/2023 11:58:11
Obviously, the person making that judgement. Which is why there is no universal moral standard in a resource-limited environment. 
Have you ever heard about altruism, or patriotism?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3511 on: 17/12/2023 09:15:49 »
Two opposing forces, each admirable in its own way. Yes, we should be kind to the poor. No, we can't allow unrestricted immigration. Another example of the impossibility of universal morality.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3512 on: 17/12/2023 10:36:14 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 17/12/2023 09:15:49
No, we can't allow unrestricted immigration.
What restrictions are necessary in immigration?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3513 on: 17/12/2023 11:17:38 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/12/2023 06:01:17
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/12/2023 11:58:11
Obviously, the person making that judgement. Which is why there is no universal moral standard in a resource-limited environment. 

Have you ever heard about altruism, or patriotism?
Those are examples of cases where the benefits are not received by the person who made the decision.
The universal moral standard can only be found by identifying the universal terminal goal. It means that we need to first define what goal is.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3514 on: 17/12/2023 12:26:52 »
The Goldman Argument - Beyond the Steelman

Straw man argument is a commonly used logical fallacy used in debates to make opponents' idea look worse than it is. Although it can make us look like the winner, especially in the eyes of people who don't have deep understanding of the issue, it makes the debate unproductive.
The gold man argument aims for the opposite effect.
« Last Edit: 17/12/2023 13:16:01 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3515 on: 17/12/2023 12:57:26 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/12/2023 10:36:14
What restrictions are necessary in immigration?
If everyone who is poorer or hungrier than the average Briton came to Britain, there wouldn't be enough food for anyone. You can apply the same arithmetic to any other legitimate reason someone might want to enter the country.

US temporary visa forms used to include the question "is it your intention to destroy the government of the United States?" - possibly another reason for restricting immigration. Not that the perpetrators of 9/11 answered the question honestly, of course, but you should never trust anyone who believes in a god, so perhaps that should be the first question.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3516 on: 17/12/2023 12:59:48 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/12/2023 11:17:38
Those are examples of cases where the benefits are not received by the person who made the decision.
Irrelevant. Altruism and patriotism are considered good by those who have them, but can be mutually contradictory, as my example shows.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3517 on: 18/12/2023 12:23:40 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 17/12/2023 12:57:26
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/12/2023 10:36:14
What restrictions are necessary in immigration?
If everyone who is poorer or hungrier than the average Briton came to Britain, there wouldn't be enough food for anyone. You can apply the same arithmetic to any other legitimate reason someone might want to enter the country.

How many poor people are allowed to come to Britain?

Quote from: alancalverd on 17/12/2023 12:57:26
US temporary visa forms used to include the question "is it your intention to destroy the government of the United States?" - possibly another reason for restricting immigration. Not that the perpetrators of 9/11 answered the question honestly, of course, but you should never trust anyone who believes in a god, so perhaps that should be the first question.
The questionnaire can be indirect, which would raise red flags for people who have bad intentions.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3518 on: 18/12/2023 12:26:51 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 17/12/2023 12:59:48
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/12/2023 11:17:38
Those are examples of cases where the benefits are not received by the person who made the decision.
Irrelevant. Altruism and patriotism are considered good by those who have them, but can be mutually contradictory, as my example shows.
It's in the definition of altruism and patriotism.
If you think they're irrelevant, perhaps you are mistaking them for something else.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3519 on: 19/12/2023 12:02:45 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 18/12/2023 12:23:40
How many poor people are allowed to come to Britain?
Legally, none, apart from genuine refugees.

There is a temporary migrant agricultural worker visa scheme but since the migrants generally take their UK wages back to a country with a much lower coast of living, they aren't really "poor" for half of the year.

Illegally, anyone who has given all his money to a crook with a rubber boat, and manages to get halfway across the English Channel, gets hotel accommodation and free healthcare  without being allowed to work.

Anyone without a visa who is paid to cross the channel in a properly equipped and competently manned rubber boat  is  called an invader, and shot.
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