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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3740 on: 10/03/2024 08:46:36 »
Which is why I quoted the United Nations statistics. And the question remains to be answered.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3741 on: 10/03/2024 10:30:07 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 10/03/2024 00:28:27
To date, the ratio of Hamas to civilian deaths in Gaza is about 13,000:15,000.
Where did you get those numbers from?
They seem to imply that a significant numbers of women and children are members of Hamas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
Quote
Breakdown of deaths by age and gender (analysis by professors Michael Spagat and Daniel Silverman), November 2023[56]

  Men and boys over 14 (35.3%)
  Women and girls over 14 (24.1%)
  Children under 15 (33.8%)
  Elderly, above 60 (6.8%)
« Last Edit: 10/03/2024 10:35:29 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3742 on: 10/03/2024 10:46:22 »
The figures I quoted are broadly in line with those given in your reference. If you know of a more reliable source, you can do the calculations yourself.

I have no idea whether Hamas subscribe to age or sex discrimination in their recruitment. In my book, anyone threatening to kill me, or working in a support role for such person, is an enemy combatant. You may have some other definition.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3743 on: 10/03/2024 12:27:50 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 07/03/2024 22:27:35
Such behavior can be found in the wilderness. Animals eat excessively to accumulate nutrients to prepare for the winter. Some of them stock up on food and hide their treasures in tunnels, burrows, and other secret spots throughout their territory.
Modern humans have similar behaviors, but with more sophisticated methods.
Animals greed was typically limited by the capacity of their stomach. Some can find a way to store more food for longer period, extending the limit on their greed.
Invention of money enabled humans to extend their greed even further.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3744 on: 10/03/2024 12:37:38 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 10/03/2024 10:46:22
The figures I quoted are broadly in line with those given in your reference. If you know of a more reliable source, you can do the calculations yourself.
You draw the line much broader than most people I know. It's almost as broad as the line mentioned in Bin Laden's manifesto.
« Last Edit: 10/03/2024 14:26:25 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3745 on: 10/03/2024 12:39:40 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 10/03/2024 10:46:22
I have no idea whether Hamas subscribe to age or sex discrimination in their recruitment. In my book, anyone threatening to kill me, or working in a support role for such person, is an enemy combatant. You may have some other definition.
How many of those dead women and children threatened to kill anyone? Are there records?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3746 on: 10/03/2024 16:56:45 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 10/03/2024 12:27:50
Animals eat excessively to accumulate nutrients to prepare for the winter.
Misuse of "excessive". Only humans eat to the point of being unable to move, or suffer from anorexia.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3747 on: 10/03/2024 17:02:19 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 10/03/2024 12:39:40
Are there records?
Yes, but you won't see them until Hamas capitulates. If you have any data on the sex or minimum age requirement to attack another person or support an attacker, you can probably do your own calculations. You might also take a view on the use and fate of human shields.

Unless you are a politician or a journalist, war is not a game.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3748 on: 10/03/2024 21:52:01 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 10/03/2024 16:56:45
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 10/03/2024 12:27:50
Animals eat excessively to accumulate nutrients to prepare for the winter.
Misuse of "excessive". Only humans eat to the point of being unable to move, or suffer from anorexia.
Haven't you seen a snake who dies because it swallowed a prey bigger than what it can digest?
« Last Edit: 18/03/2024 15:22:02 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3749 on: 10/03/2024 22:01:01 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 10/03/2024 17:02:19
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 10/03/2024 12:39:40
Are there records?
Yes, but you won't see them until Hamas capitulates. If you have any data on the sex or minimum age requirement to attack another person or support an attacker, you can probably do your own calculations. You might also take a view on the use and fate of human shields.

Unless you are a politician or a journalist, war is not a game.
You've already determined them as members of Hamas.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3750 on: 11/03/2024 08:04:30 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 10/03/2024 12:27:50
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 07/03/2024 22:27:35
Such behavior can be found in the wilderness. Animals eat excessively to accumulate nutrients to prepare for the winter. Some of them stock up on food and hide their treasures in tunnels, burrows, and other secret spots throughout their territory.
Modern humans have similar behaviors, but with more sophisticated methods.
Animals greed was typically limited by the capacity of their stomach. Some can find a way to store more food for longer period, extending the limit on their greed.
Invention of money enabled humans to extend their greed even further.
Agriculture, food storage and preservation technology enabled humans to survive harsher periods and catastrophic events by making preparations and save more resources beforehand.
Bigger catastrophes require better preparations. Collecting one type of resource often reduces the capacity to collect the other types of resources, which are also necessary to survive.
Greed becomes bad when excessively collecting one type of resource prevent the necessary collection of other resources. Bad greeds cause net negative consequences.
« Last Edit: 11/03/2024 10:23:08 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3751 on: 25/03/2024 16:11:33 »
Why morality is not subjective.
Quote
A clip from my conversation about Moral Realism with Matthew Adelstein
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3752 on: 25/03/2024 17:04:47 »
If morality were not subjective, it would not change with time. But it does, and continues to do so.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3753 on: 26/03/2024 14:40:57 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/03/2024 17:04:47
If morality were not subjective, it would not change with time. But it does, and continues to do so.
Science doesn't suppose to be subjective. But it did change over time.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3754 on: 27/03/2024 12:21:51 »
Understanding realism vs antirealism, and how to apply it to morality.
Realism and Anti-Realism | Philosophy Glossary
Quote
What do 'realism' and 'anti-realism' mean in philosophy? How should we understand the terms, and how do they relate to one another? You'll know in under 5 minutes of this Philosophy Glossary explainer!

00:00 - Intro
00:34 - Metaphysics
00:50 - Definitions
01:20 - Different kinds of anti-realism
01:37 - Examples
02:11 - Not about what causes a thing to exist
02:33 - Less clear cases of realism
02:49 - Anti-realism
03:24 - Idealism
03:45 - Berkeley
04:33 - More examples
05:46 - Wrap up



A. C. Grayling - Realism vs. Anti-realism
Quote
What are anti-realists and why do they deny objective reality? What we know of the world must come through our senses and be processed by our brains. Both can be unreliable; illusions can fool our senses and illness or injury can disrupt our brains. Therefore, can we ever be sure that anything outside ourselves is truly what it seems?
« Last Edit: 27/03/2024 12:25:30 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3755 on: 27/03/2024 12:33:27 »
Christopher Isham - Realism vs. Anti-realism
Quote
What are anti-realists and why do they deny objective reality? What we know of the world must come through our senses and be processed by our brains. Both can be unreliable; illusions can fool our senses and illness or injury can disrupt our brains. Therefore, can we ever be sure that anything outside ourselves is truly what it seems?

J.L. Schellenberg - Realism vs. Anti-realism
Quote
What are anti-realists and why do they deny objective reality? What we know of the world must come through our senses and be processed by our brains. Both can be unreliable; illusions can fool our senses and illness or injury can disrupt our brains. Therefore, can we ever be sure that anything outside ourselves is truly what it seems?

This is one of the commentary to the video.
Quote
I like to think of the problem of realism as being analogous to signal processing.
A signal is being received, and it's being decomposed to extract all order from it. What's left over is noise.
The signal being received is the direct evidence of the universe. It's not that one can precisely know its properties in advance, as the decomposition always yields some leftover noise. But, it does seem overwhelmingly likely that the signal is received rather than internally generated, by its complexity, unpredictability, and verifiability from multiple perspectives.
This is a kind of realism whereby theories of the universe necessarily yield some leftover noise, and the unpredictability it implies is fundamental and universal.
A deterministic universe, from this perspective, is the purest expression of idealism.
Also, it should be noted that there is a social element to realist constructions. In absence of a consistent physical theory of everything, it should be assumed that all assumptions about the true nature of reality are at least a little contingent. The game of realism, then, is to convince others that your fabrications are the most plausible!
The mostly likely answer, however, is that we're all at least a little bit wrong.
« Last Edit: 27/03/2024 12:45:15 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3756 on: 27/03/2024 12:50:37 »
Scrolling through Youtube videos, virtually all religious channels I found defend moral realism, while all defenders of moral anti-realism tend to be non-religious. Some defenders of moral realism are also non-religious.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3757 on: 27/03/2024 18:14:45 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 27/03/2024 12:50:37
virtually all religious channels
Garbage in, garbage out. But that's true for all philosophy.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3758 on: 27/03/2024 18:18:30 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 26/03/2024 14:40:57
Science doesn't suppose to be subjective. But it did change over time.
Science is a process, which hasn't changed. Scientific knowledge has changed be cause the process is intentionally dynamic.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3759 on: 28/03/2024 03:32:47 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 27/03/2024 12:50:37
Scrolling through Youtube videos, virtually all religious channels I found defend moral realism, while all defenders of moral anti-realism tend to be non-religious. Some defenders of moral realism are also non-religious.
Moral Realism: Defended
Quote
In this video we offer several arguments in defense of moral realism, the position that objective moral values and duties exist.

Moral Anti-Realism Defended: A Response to @InspiringPhilosophy
Quote
0:00 - Moral realism
1:48 - Epistemic facts
8:19 - Moral experience
12:51 - Moral disagreement
18:20 - Moral progress and convergence
22:39 - Moral intuition

The Best Argument For Moral Realism?
Quote
A clip of Hilary Putnam giving a "Reductio Ad Rortyan" argument for moral realism (or against moral anti-realism) and then Nathan Nobis provides a similar such argument, a version of a companion in guilt argument. Note, this is a version of an upload from the previous channel of something that I put together awhile ago.
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