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  4. Is there a universal moral standard?
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Is there a universal moral standard?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3880 on: 28/07/2024 12:46:02 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/07/2024 09:52:24
Let us assume that the UTG has something to do with the survival of consciousness.

Joe Scumbag is not only a popular politician, but has the ability to father hundreds of children. He also demands that women wear ridiculous clothing and should be beaten to death for not doing so.

Bill Niceguy is infertile and therefore cannot contribute to the UTG, but thinks it would be a good idea to kill Joe Scumbag and allow half the population to wear whatever they like. Would his action be moral or immoral?   
In real life, we need to consider all possible consequences, and make decisions that leads to the best possible outcome. Moral rules are made to work on most common situations, which makes calculations simpler and faster. But if some credible information is available that's contradicting initial assumptions, the exception to the rules should be made instead.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3881 on: 28/07/2024 16:59:10 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/07/2024 12:46:02
make decisions that leads to the best possible outcome.
Which is the issue under discussion. You have to define "best" in some way that doesn't contradict "universal", and you have failed to do so.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3882 on: 01/08/2024 11:28:50 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 28/07/2024 16:59:10
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 28/07/2024 12:46:02
make decisions that leads to the best possible outcome.
Which is the issue under discussion. You have to define "best" in some way that doesn't contradict "universal", and you have failed to do so.
I have explained about the universal moral standard based on the universal terminal goal a long time ago. You just seemed to have forgotten that, or failed to understand that in the first place.
The goal requires the existence of at least one conscious entity.
The word terminal refers to furthest conceivable future.
The word universal prohibits additional unnecessary constraints in selecting the terminal goal or how to achieve it.
Inherently finite information on physical reality and computational resources enforce the involvement of probabilistic calculations.

From those points above, it's easy to conclude that the best possible outcome is corresponding to the highest probability on continuously extending the existence of consciousness into furthest conceivable future.

« Last Edit: 01/08/2024 11:32:18 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3883 on: 01/08/2024 14:47:15 »
So when you  say "universal" you actually mean "restricted to something that may be unique and exist in the future". Which brings us back to the last surviving cockroach as the sun engulfs the planet.

An entirely logical concept, but I think you may have some difficulty selling it to humans, and I don't know of another species that can read.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3884 on: 02/08/2024 15:46:44 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 01/08/2024 14:47:15
So when you  say "universal" you actually mean "restricted to something that may be unique and exist in the future". Which brings us back to the last surviving cockroach as the sun engulfs the planet.

An entirely logical concept, but I think you may have some difficulty selling it to humans, and I don't know of another species that can read.
No. Universal goal means the least restricted/constrained goal. Cockroaches can't outlive the planet. Humans' descendants has the chance to do so, especially when they have mastered the Genetic, Nanotech, and Robotic, which will be helped a lot by the advancement of AI.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3885 on: 02/08/2024 23:12:41 »
As far as we know, humans and cockroaches have a common ancestor, so why choose humans as your starting point? Particularly if you are going to accept genetic change which means that our successors won't be human anyway?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3886 on: 06/08/2024 04:53:08 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 02/08/2024 23:12:41
As far as we know, humans and cockroaches have a common ancestor, so why choose humans as your starting point? Particularly if you are going to accept genetic change which means that our successors won't be human anyway?
Because AFAIK, human is the most likely species which will produce a form of superintelligence which has the capability of self improvement, thus has a chance to build ecosystems of conscious entities independent of certain particular objects floating in space (e.g. the earth and the sun). If you find a better candidate, let me know.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3887 on: 06/08/2024 12:42:23 »
Cockroaches learn by experience, and are more tolerant of cosmic radiation. Or possibly termites, who build very resilient ecosystems in a hostile environment.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3888 on: 06/08/2024 13:33:09 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 06/08/2024 12:42:23
Cockroaches learn by experience, and are more tolerant of cosmic radiation. Or possibly termites, who build very resilient ecosystems in a hostile environment.
They can't survive in outer space, which comprises most volume of the universe.
A better candidate is tardigrade. But they need a vehicle to escape earth gravity.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3889 on: 06/08/2024 15:29:11 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 04/08/2024 13:51:19
A guided man is more conscious than an unguided man, which in turn is more conscious than a misguided man.
A guided AI is more conscious than an unguided AI, which in turn is more conscious than a misguided AI.
The objective of moral standards is especially to minimize the risk posed by misguided conscious entities. Societies which failed to do so have higher risk of going to extinction.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3890 on: 06/08/2024 16:19:57 »
So we seem to have reached the conclusion that you want to build something that isn't a human, possesses a characteristic  that you can't define, and can survive somewhere that is hostile to human life.
(a) why?
(b) what makes you think it doesn't already exist somewhere else in the universe?
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3891 on: 07/08/2024 07:14:29 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 06/08/2024 16:19:57
So we seem to have reached the conclusion that you want to build something that isn't a human, possesses a characteristic  that you can't define, and can survive somewhere that is hostile to human life.
(a) why?
(b) what makes you think it doesn't already exist somewhere else in the universe?
I have defined the universal terminal goal, and also defined the words universal, terminal, goal, and consciousness in the process. You just seem to keep forgetting them. I'll just have to keep reminding you about them.
a. Our current decisions and actions will determine whether or not our successors exist in the future.
b. I haven't found any reliable evidence.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3892 on: 07/08/2024 07:17:34 »
A story can help us reveal the consequences of our decisions which are often overlooked, so we can examine whether or not we have made the best possible decisions.

Do the ends justify the means? The ABHORRENT Philosophy of Serenity
Quote
I take the time to examine the philosophy behind the 2005 film Serenity, the conclusion to the short-lived TV show Firefly. The film conveys a battle between the views of deontology and utilitarianism, exploring the complexities behind the characters' decisions and motivations.

--

Timestamps:

00:00 An Ethical Odyssey
01:10 Philosophical Fuel
02:24 Utilitarian Enforcer
04:45 Deontological Defenders
10:16 Utopian Architects
13:27 Revelations & Realignments

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3893 on: 07/08/2024 07:23:54 »
Australians blame wind and solar for surging power bills
Some of the comments.
Quote
The best solar company in Australia just installed my new solar system.  Check them out here: https://www.resinc.com.au/electricviking

The money doesn't like distributed power systems. Too hard to exploit

Australians have access to all the real information and facts we could want, if we make a tiny effort. There is no excuse for such gullibility other than outright stupidity, at this point.

Mean while, my Australian power supplier is giving away free electricity from 11am to 2pm - capitalising on the over supply of solar. I have never understood how solar and wind is meant to increase power costs. Taking advantage of this, I now have a home battery charged by this free electricity for night time use.

Lying and misinformation are generally bad for the society, hence they are usually classified as immoral.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3894 on: 07/08/2024 07:25:53 »
Can violence EVER be justified? Gaza and beyond | Ghada Karmi, Peter Singer, Uriel Abulof
Quote

Ghada Karmi, Peter Singer and Uriel Abulof discuss the ethics of violence and vengeance, and whether there should be any difference in how we view these concepts between the oppressors and the oppressed.

What do you think - is context paramount when it comes to violent acts?

From Robin Hood to Che Guevara, the oppressed hold the moral high ground. The exploited worker, the dominated minority, the enslaved people, are seen as rightly acting to better their circumstances. Some even maintain the oppressed can never act immorally. But there is a risk this undermines the central moral notion that principles should apply to everyone independent of their circumstances. It also encourages portraying oneself as a victim. Moreover, critics argue that oppressed vs oppressor morality hinders our ability to solve problems that defy simple categorisation into good and bad.
Should we conclude that morality has nothing to do with oppression? Are violence and vengeance no more acceptable on the part of the victim than the aggressor? Or is morality inextricably linked to the circumstances of the actors whether in Gaza, apartheid South Africa, or the Twin Towers attack, or the events of everyday life and relationships?

#moralphilosophy  #gaza  #ethics

Peter Singer is one of the most prominent figures in contemporary ethics. He is an Australian moral philosopher and the Emeritus Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics at Princeton University and the author of Animal Liberation. Ghada Karmi is a Palestinian-born academic, physician and author. She held a number of research appointments on Middle Eastern politics and culture at the School of Oriental and African Studies, and in the Universities of Durham and Leeds. Uriel Abulof is an associate professor at Tel-Aviv University?s School of Political Science, Government and International Affairs. Mary Ann Seighart hosts.

00:00 Introduction
00:43 Moral philosopher Peter Singer on consequentialism
03:42 Palestinian author Ghada Karmi on the difference between the oppressor and the oppressed
07:59 Professor Uriel Abulof on the universal need for moral reckoning
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3895 on: 07/08/2024 16:37:10 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 07/08/2024 07:25:53
Can violence EVER be justified?
In retribution or for prevention, yes.
The alternative would be a Nazi world.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3896 on: 08/08/2024 11:55:44 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 07/08/2024 16:37:10
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 07/08/2024 07:25:53
Can violence EVER be justified?
In retribution or for prevention, yes.
The alternative would be a Nazi world.
The Nazis justified their actions by playing the victim.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_the_victim
Quote
Playing the victim (also known as victim playing, victim card, or self-victimization) is the fabrication or exaggeration of victimhood for a variety of reasons such as to justify abuse to others, to manipulate others, a coping strategy, attention seeking or diffusion of responsibility. A person who repeatedly does this is known as a professional victim. An actual victim is someone or something that has been hurt, damaged, or killed or has suffered, either because of the actions of someone or something else, or because of illness or chance.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3897 on: 08/08/2024 17:06:24 »
A lie cannot justify anything.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3898 on: 09/08/2024 14:47:24 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/08/2024 17:06:24
A lie cannot justify anything.
But somehow some lies can be justified. The justification depends on the chosen terminal goal.
In the end, the justification for the terminal goal of a system is whether or not it helps the (future versions of the) system survive.
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Re: Is there a universal moral standard?
« Reply #3899 on: 09/08/2024 15:49:06 »
Maimonides said a lie is permissible to save a life, to comfort the dying, or to prevent a greater evil. Politicians and economists do not lie for those purposes, and the only reason it is necessary for a religious pervert to lie to a dying person is because he has previously told his victim that post-death is either a good or bad experience (a lie either way).
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