[alancalverd]

The purpose of a test is to test what it says. The purpose of software is to do what is required.

I have a VW diesel engine which does exactly what it says on the tin. At a constant 50 - 55 mph (the speed limit in many US States) in 5th gear the car is phenomenally efficient - something like 80 miles per gallon. This is pretty close to the WLTP condition. Under real world conditions the average consumption is about 50 mpg, but it meets the NOx standards as it uses AdBlue.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The purpose of a test is to test what it says. The purpose of software is to do what is required.

The tests implicitly assumed that the test results are representative for real world applications. The cheating software was precisely meant to defeat that assumption, which rendered the test results useless.

One of my colleague had hypertension, but his annual medical check up always show normal blood pressure because he took the medicine beforehand. One day he forgot to take the medicine, and somehow ended up getting cerebral hemorrhage. Fortunately he can survive, after medical treatments that took months.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

testing standards like Real Driving Emissions (RDE) and Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicles Test Procedure (WLTP).

Two different sets of rules. VW met the US current test standard at the time of test.

But the cars didn't meet the standard when they were driven on the road.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

By definition, it's viewed from the perspective of conscious entities in the future.

Which means you can't claim to know it now.

I can predict what they will say.
Because any other moral standards are necessarily less universal.

The standard is clear, plain and simple. What's difficult is to determine which decision or behavior is the most aligned with that standard in some particular situations. Because it depends on the details, and some parameters have more significant impact on the end result than the others. In practice, we don't have complete information, so we need to rely on probability and statistics.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Why Governments Won't Act On Climate Change

This video gets many interesting comments.

9:30 ?We?ll go down in history as the first society that wouldn't save itself because it wasn't cost effective.? ? Kurt Vonnegut

?Yes, the planet got destroyed, but for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders?

That united health CEO is an example of what happens when a citizen shows what a "discounted" person is actually worth when taking it into their own hands

The other problem is that governments don't look very far past the next election. Why spend money today when following governments will get the benefits? Hence the temptation to kick the can down the road and simply delay things.

[alancalverd]

The tests implicitly assumed that the test results are representative for real world applications.

The people who specified the test may have (wrongly) assumed that, but the tests assume nothing. Fact is, however, that a constant 50 - 55 mph does represent most of the mileage covered by US motor vehicles. Problem is that the environmental concern is about urban pollution, not freeway cruising.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The people who specified the test may have (wrongly) assumed that, but the tests assume nothing.

The scandal has industry-wide impacts.

Increased Scrutiny: Other automakers faced investigations, leading to further emissions-related scandals (e.g., Mercedes-Benz, Fiat Chrysler).

Stricter Regulations:

The EU introduced Real Driving Emissions (RDE) testing, requiring vehicles to meet emissions limits in real-world driving conditions.

The U.S. and other countries adopted stricter emissions and fuel efficiency standards.

ChatGPT

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Why Governments Won't Act On Climate Change

The universal terminal goal explicitly prioritizes conscious entities in distant future, but the existence of conscious entities at the present is the most certain thing. We need to find the delicate balance between the two.

[alancalverd]

Increased Scrutiny: Other automakers faced investigations, leading to further emissions-related scandals (e.g., Mercedes-Benz, Fiat Chrysler).

If everyone does it, is it a scandal or just a mistake?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Increased Scrutiny: Other automakers faced investigations, leading to further emissions-related scandals (e.g., Mercedes-Benz, Fiat Chrysler).

If everyone does it, is it a scandal or just a mistake?

Not everyone does it.
It's a scandal because it's intentional.

[alancalverd]

The intent was to pass the test, which it did.

 The scandal was twofold, perpetrated by  (a) whoever designed the original US test and pretended it was representative of normal driving and (b) the EPA in complaining about VW meeting the test specification because it didn't meet their arbitrary concept of some other conditions.

Suppose a soccer player scored a goal, and was sent off the field for not playing cricket.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

The intent was to pass the test, which it did.

 The scandal was twofold, perpetrated by  (a) whoever designed the original US test and pretended it was representative of normal driving and (b) the EPA in complaining about VW meeting the test specification because it didn't meet their arbitrary concept of some other conditions.

Suppose a soccer player scored a goal, and was sent off the field for not playing cricket.

"Quality means doing it right when no one is looking" is often attributed to Henry Ford. The VW diesel cars in the scandal did right specifically in the test, and consistently did wrong outside of the test.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Volkswagen (VW) struggled to make its diesel engines consistently pass emissions limits outside of test conditions due to a combination of technical, cost, and strategic challenges. Here?s an explanation:


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1. Technical Challenges

Diesel Combustion Properties:

Diesel engines inherently produce more nitrogen oxides (NOx) because they operate at higher combustion temperatures for better fuel efficiency. Reducing NOx emissions without compromising performance is technically complex.


Emissions Control Limitations:

Effective emissions-reduction systems, such as Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) with AdBlue or Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR), require precise calibration and maintenance to work consistently. In real-world driving conditions (e.g., high speeds, stop-and-go traffic), these systems are less effective.

Real-world driving introduces variables like temperature, load, and altitude that were not accounted for in older emissions testing.




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2. Cost Considerations

Balancing Performance, Cost, and Compliance:

Implementing advanced emissions technologies (e.g., larger SCR systems or dual catalytic converters) would increase production costs and vehicle prices.

VW wanted to offer fuel-efficient, high-performance cars at competitive prices, especially in the U.S., where diesel cars were less popular and margins were tighter.


AdBlue Tank Size:

Smaller AdBlue tanks used to save space and costs needed more frequent refills, which VW believed would inconvenience customers and hurt sales. This limited the system?s effectiveness in reducing NOx.




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3. Regulatory Testing Loopholes

Lab-Only Testing Standards:

At the time, emissions regulations like the U.S. EPA and EU standards relied heavily on laboratory-based testing rather than real-world driving emissions. VW optimized its engines to meet these specific conditions, knowing real-world performance wasn't scrutinized as rigorously.

VW exploited this loophole with defeat devices to appear compliant without actually solving the emissions problem.




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4. Competitive Pressure

Diesel vs. Gasoline Efficiency:

Diesel engines were marketed as offering better fuel economy and lower CO₂ emissions compared to gasoline engines. To maintain this edge while meeting emissions regulations, VW chose to cheat rather than develop more expensive or less efficient solutions.


Market Rivalry:

Competing automakers were introducing diesel vehicles that appeared to meet regulations, pressuring VW to deliver similar results without increasing costs.




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5. Strategic Missteps

Shortcuts Over Solutions:

Instead of investing in advanced emissions technologies or electric vehicles earlier, VW relied on incremental improvements to older diesel technology, which was reaching its limits.

The company prioritized short-term profits and market expansion over long-term compliance and sustainability.




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6. Real-World Driving Conditions

Dynamic Driving Conditions:

Regulations often test emissions at a limited range of speeds, loads, and temperatures, but real-world driving involves diverse conditions that are harder to control. VW?s engines were tuned to perform well under predictable lab conditions but could not consistently meet standards in varied real-world scenarios.




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Could VW Have Avoided This?

Yes, but it would have required:

1. Greater Investment in Technology: Adopting larger SCR systems, better EGRs, or hybrid diesel technology.


2. Transparency: Acknowledging the limitations of diesel and pivoting to alternative solutions earlier.


3. Long-Term Vision: Embracing electrification sooner to phase out diesel engines entirely.




---

Conclusion

VW?s inability to meet emissions limits consistently stemmed from a mix of technological constraints, financial pressures, and deliberate deception. While technical solutions existed, they required compromises in cost, convenience, or performance that VW was unwilling to make. Instead, the company chose to manipulate testing, leading to one of the most significant corporate scandals in automotive history.

[alancalverd]

consistently did wrong outside of the test.

No. There being no definition of "right" outside the test, there was no such thing as "wrong". 

EPA moved the goalposts. They were entitled to do that, but retrospective punishment is wrong.

"Quality means doing it right when no one is looking" is often attributed to Henry Ford.

That's a definition of integrity, not quality, and why anyone should revere that disgusting antisemite is beyond my comprehension.

Quality is now defined by the International Standards Organisation as "conformance to specification". Which is what VW achieved.

ChatGPT has failed to distinguish between a specification and a loophole.

Diesel engines have always produced less CO2 and better fuel economy than gasoline, and continue to do so.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

No. There being no definition of "right" outside the test, there was no such thing as "wrong".

EPA moved the goalposts. They were entitled to do that, but retrospective punishment is wrong.

What Happened?

Cheating Software: VW installed "defeat devices" in about 11 million diesel cars worldwide. This software could detect when the vehicle was undergoing emissions testing and adjust the engine's performance to reduce emissions temporarily.

Real-World Emissions: Outside of testing conditions, the cars emitted nitrogen oxide (NOx) pollutants up to 40 times higher than the legal limits in some markets.


How It Was Discovered?

The scandal was uncovered by researchers from the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) and West Virginia University. They conducted real-world emissions testing and found significant discrepancies between lab results and on-road emissions.

So you don't think that cheating is wrong.

Real-world emissions tests are conducted using Portable Emissions Measurement Systems (PEMS) and are designed to measure pollutants emitted by vehicles during everyday driving conditions. These tests address the limitations of laboratory-based testing and provide more accurate assessments of a vehicle's environmental impact. Here?s how they work:


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1. Equipment Used:

Portable Emissions Measurement System (PEMS):

A compact, mobile device installed on the vehicle to measure exhaust emissions.

Measures pollutants like nitrogen oxides (NOx), carbon dioxide (CO₂), and particulate matter (PM) in real-time.

Connected to the vehicle?s exhaust system and monitors emissions continuously during the test.




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2. Test Setup:

The vehicle is driven on public roads under normal driving conditions, rather than in a controlled laboratory.

The test includes a mix of:

Urban driving: Frequent stops, low speeds, and idling.

Suburban driving: Moderate speeds with minimal stops.

Highway driving: High-speed cruising.




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3. Driving Conditions Simulated:

The vehicle encounters real-world variables such as:

Varying traffic conditions.

Weather (e.g., rain, wind, temperature fluctuations).

Road inclines and declines.

Driver behavior (e.g., aggressive acceleration, braking).




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4. Data Collected:

Pollutant Emissions: NOx, CO₂, carbon monoxide (CO), and particulate matter.

Engine Performance: RPM, load, and fuel consumption.

Driving Environment: Speed, distance, altitude, and temperature.



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5. Regulatory Frameworks Using Real-World Testing:

EU Real Driving Emissions (RDE):

Introduced in 2016 as part of the Euro 6 standard.

Requires vehicles to comply with emissions limits under real-world driving conditions.

Tests conducted with PEMS over specific driving routes to ensure consistency.


US In-Use Testing Programs:

Similar PEMS-based tests mandated by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA).

Focus on verifying emissions compliance during the vehicle?s lifecycle.




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6. Comparison with Lab Testing:


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7. Outcomes of Real-World Testing:

Exposed Discrepancies: Revealed that many vehicles emitted far more pollutants in real-world conditions than allowed under lab tests.

Triggered Reforms: Led to stricter emissions regulations (e.g., EU RDE and Worldwide Harmonized Light Vehicle Test Procedure, WLTP).

Encouraged Transparency: Forced manufacturers to develop better emissions control systems for real-world conditions.



---

Conclusion:

Real-world emissions tests using PEMS are now a standard tool for ensuring vehicles comply with emissions regulations beyond controlled environments. They provide a more realistic picture of how vehicles perform on the road, ultimately driving advancements in cleaner automotive technologies.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Diesel engines have always produced less CO2 and better fuel economy than gasoline, and continue to do so.

Buat they have higher emission of NOx, which is more dangerous to human health than CO2.

[alancalverd]

Which is why we have to design systems to a standard, and play to the rules. AdBlue seems to solve the problem.

Official bodies take widely different views on these matters.  Throughout Europe, diesel fuel is generally cheaper than gasoline because (a) it's cheaper to make and (b) it produces less CO2. But in the UK it is more expensive because Margaret Thatcher wanted a "level playing field" of cost per mile between diesel and gasoline cars at 8000 miles per year, so it carries a higher tax.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Which is why we have to design systems to a standard, and play to the rules. AdBlue seems to solve the problem.

Official bodies take widely different views on these matters.  Throughout Europe, diesel fuel is generally cheaper than gasoline because (a) it's cheaper to make and (b) it produces less CO2. But in the UK it is more expensive because Margaret Thatcher wanted a "level playing field" of cost per mile between diesel and gasoline cars at 8000 miles per year, so it carries a higher tax.

If a level playing field means the same level of toxic NOx emission, then diesel engine needs to improve with higher costs.

[alancalverd]

Margaret Thatcher was interested in money, not public safety. At the time, the few remaining UK car manufacturers did not have a diesel product (or indeed anything reliable) so high-mileage drivers were importing European VW, Mercedes and Renault diesel cars.  Rather than invest in the necessary R&D, the UK automotive industry supported increased tax on diesel fuel. Truckers had no choice.

Where the law requires a particular emissions specification, it is met by the methods you cited in reply # 4075. No problem, but if the question isn't asked, nobody is going to waste time and effort  looking for an answer!

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Margaret Thatcher was interested in money, not public safety. At the time, the few remaining UK car manufacturers did not have a diesel product (or indeed anything reliable) so high-mileage drivers were importing European VW, Mercedes and Renault diesel cars.  Rather than invest in the necessary R&D, the UK automotive industry supported increased tax on diesel fuel. Truckers had no choice.

Where the law requires a particular emissions specification, it is met by the methods you cited in reply # 4075. No problem, but if the question isn't asked, nobody is going to waste time and effort  looking for an answer!

Cost of making batteries is falling down quickly, as well as cost of generating renewable electricity, especially solar panels. While their specifications like safety, charging duration and lifetime are improving. They will drive ICE vehicles economically uncompetitive.