[qpan]

Yep- you got it tweener! I really wish that mayo would read my other posts and understand my points rather than just purely disputing them.

Mayo- if string theory is true, then there are an additional 7 spatial dimensions which we cannot travel in- are you going to dismiss that too purely on the basis that it does not follow nature's pattern?
Please read my other posts - i am NOT arguing that the 4d hypersphere has no boundaries - i am just saying that the surface of it is boundaryless. Our universe could exist on the surface of that 4d hypersphere as the surface is 3d. I'm not argueing that there is nothing else in the 4th dimension - what is there cannot be seen or detected by us and our brains cannot even comprehend a 4th dimension, so that argument is meaningless. However, the model i suggest does mean that our 3d universe has no boundaries, and therefore nothing to be beyond those boundaries.

Also, its not a matter of scientists inventing a way of travelling in additional dimensions- those dimensions are probably different in some way to the 3 dimensions we can travel in, and may be incapable of carrying matter at all and may only be able to hold the fabric of space.

And nature doesn't always follow patterns. The very essence of quantum mechanics means that there is a chance that anything can happen, but some things are a lot more likely to happen than others.

If i bounce a ball on the ground enough times, there is an infinetessimal chance that on one of the bounces, the atoms in the ball will spontaneously change poistion, miss the ground and reform on the other side of the earth. Doesn't fit the pattern of nature does it? Once in probably a googleplex (10 raised to the power of a google, a google (= 10^100) being a number greater than the number of atoms in the observable universe) of bounces (even stranger than 1 in 4 dimensions might i add).

Another example is the assymetry of our universe - which is why the 4 fundamental forces have such varying degrees of strength (with 1 in 4 of the forces - gravity- being a lot weaker than the others).


"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe

[MayoFlyFarmer]

I am not disputing you just for the sake of disagreement.  (although I have been known to do taht from time to time [}:)]) I even agree with everything you said in this post.  Except the not being able to travel in the 4th dimension part. And yes I read your string theory thread, I found it very interesting, but too technical for me to give an intelegent response to.  I'm just trying to point out that none of the evidence presented yet makes a case to me, that (if our universe has bounds, which I believe it does, but is also not proven) that we cannot travel beyond them.  If matter cannot exist in the 4th demnsion, and thus not travel, then we obviously do not need to travel as matter in the 4th dimension.  That would not be reasonable.  And as far as the paterns of the universe, I do agree that not EVERYTHING follows a pattern (at least not that we have been able to observe, although I have my theories that the contray is true)  however so MANY things follow patterns that when something doesn't it is my flag as a scientific tinker to be skeptical of it.  And the random factor in q-theory is not a good example of things not following patterns.  The random instances when, say an electron, is out of its probable location refer to an individual item, and does not constitute a break in a pattern of any sort.  Actually it shows a great pattern that everything, to our knowledge, follows quantum theory.

This is a signature.... AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!!

[qpan]

Ok mayo - good to know you agree with some things i say.

There is absolutely no evidence that the universe is a 4d hypersphere (physically). But things like M-theory (string theory with 1 extra spatial dimension) theorise that our perceivable universe does exist as a membrane (surface)on a higher dimensional shape. Most of these shapes are not 4d hyperspheres- but are rather shapes like higher dimensional doughnuts (with multiple holes in). A 4d hypersphere was the simplest example of a higher dimensional shape i could think of, so i used that to illustrate my points.

I'm just saying that we view things on a very small scale and only in a minute corner of the universe. Viewing the universe as a finite entity in an infinite space is a very classical perception, and causes a few problems.
One is the big crunch theory. If light is able to travel faster than the matter boundary of our universe, then if a big crunch occurs, some energy will be lost forever. This would mean that the big bang/big crunch cycle could only happen at most once, and in the second big bang, there would be slightly less energy in the universe, meaning that the universe will be just under the critical mass (and would continue expanding forever). That wouldn't make for a very elegant universe.

Also, its programmed into our minds that everything has a boundary - just because everything we see around us does. History might very well repeat itself, just like when people discovered that the earth was a sphere and not flat, and therefore discovered they could never fall off of the edge of it.

Patterns (trends in macroscopic physical systems). Patterns are just macroscopic approximations to extremely complex mathematical equations. The chaos and randomness of quantum theory can be described by mathematical equations (of probability), but yet show no definite patterns. Patterns only appear when considering macroscopic systems where quantum mechanical effects are averaged out. Patterns are usually physical laws made by inspection and experiment (e.g. hookes law, newton 2). You cannot rule something out because it does not fit a pattern - maybe the pattern can be perceived in a different way, or maybe the pattern is just an approximation. However, to be fair, some things do follow patterns, but i do not think we know what the patterns are at the moment, as all the theories/equations etc are just approximations to more complex patterns yet to be discovered in (maybe) string theory.


"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe

[MayoFlyFarmer]

[^]heh, finally a response in which I do not disagree with anyting (such a relief, [:p]

This is a signature.... AND YOU WILL LIKE IT!!

[Donnah]

Very interesting Qpan and Justin.  I think everything has a pattern, but not at all times.  Raindrops have a pattern as they fall to earth and if it's cold they turn into snowflakes, which also have a pattern.  But in the process of changing from rain to snow they "lose" their pattern for a while.

There is some fascinating work done by Gregg Braden, among others, in the field.  Check out www.lauralee.com and look on the right side of the screen for Favorite Products.  Awakening to Zero Point is a good starting point.

[qpan]

If the universe is infinite in size, the universe will reach maximum entropy (equilibrium) when time = infinity. It is not possible to have finite entropy in an infinite universe. Maximum entropy occurs when the whole universe is filled up with an equal density of matter, but if the universe is infinite, matter needs to expand forever to reach equilibrium.
However, if the universe ends in a big crunch, then the maximum achievable entropy will be at the end of the big crunch when the universe is just 1 superheavy black hole/singularity (as black holes have very high values of entropy).

"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe

[tweener]

If you believe M-theory, it appears that black holes are actually massless. [?][?][?]

So, I guess that means that if the big crunch comes, then the universe will be one 3-brane wrapped around a massless singularity in a very small 11-dimensional universe. Then what?

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.

[qpan]

quote:Originally posted by tweener


So, I guess that means that if the big crunch comes, then the universe will be one 3-brane wrapped around a massless singularity in a very small 11-dimensional universe. Then what?

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.

Then maybe the big bang will occur again! (or maybe that will be the end of "everything," at least in our space-time)

And yep- black holes do appear to be massless in some forms of M-theory...Very strange if you ask me!

"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe

[tweener]

Or, maybe our universe is a singularity that is wrapped by some p-brane inside another universe?  That means the "big bang" was the spatial tear that made the singularity and the big crunch is the "repair" of the singularity that string theory predicts will happen.  Then what?

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.

[qpan]

If the universe is infinite in size, the universe will reach maximum entropy (equilibrium) when time = infinity. It is not possible to have finite entropy in an infinite universe. Maximum entropy occurs when the whole universe is filled up with an equal density of matter, but if the universe is infinite, matter needs to expand forever to reach equilibrium.
However, if the universe ends in a big crunch, then the maximum achievable entropy will be at the end of the big crunch when the universe is just 1 superheavy black hole/singularity (as black holes have very high values of entropy).

"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe

[tweener]

If you believe M-theory, it appears that black holes are actually massless. [?][?][?]

So, I guess that means that if the big crunch comes, then the universe will be one 3-brane wrapped around a massless singularity in a very small 11-dimensional universe. Then what?

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.

[qpan]

quote:Originally posted by tweener


So, I guess that means that if the big crunch comes, then the universe will be one 3-brane wrapped around a massless singularity in a very small 11-dimensional universe. Then what?

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.

Then maybe the big bang will occur again! (or maybe that will be the end of "everything," at least in our space-time)

And yep- black holes do appear to be massless in some forms of M-theory...Very strange if you ask me!

"I have great faith in fools; self-confidence my friends call it."
-Edgar Allan Poe

[tweener]

Or, maybe our universe is a singularity that is wrapped by some p-brane inside another universe?  That means the "big bang" was the spatial tear that made the singularity and the big crunch is the "repair" of the singularity that string theory predicts will happen.  Then what?

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.

[neilep]

Phew !!!..I'm exhausetd after reading and attempting to digest all this info...but I can't help but be completely mesmerised by it all, it's absolutely fascinating stuff !!........I'm sure if there is an edge to the Universe then somewhere on the other side there is probably a Macky Dees doing quite well !![] They seem to pop up everywhere don't they ?

Sorry for lowering the tone !![)]

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'