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  4. Split from "How fundamental is time?"
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Split from "How fundamental is time?"

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Offline mxplxxx (OP)

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Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« on: 08/03/2019 03:58:06 »
I think there exists perceived time, related to awareness and rate of change of reality systems, and absolute time, related to the absolute speed of light. At the same time, I think reality only exists in an eternal present and time is the awareness the rate of change of the eternally existing components of reality (as per conservation of energy). Let me explain. 

I like to think of reality as a set of systems fitted inside each other like the Russian dolls.  Each system has the same basic type, being a central object surrounded by a variable number of peripheral subsystems. The central object contains the state of the system. So, for example, we have  a solar system consisting of the Sun as the central object surrounded by planetary sub systems. And a galaxy system is a central galactic black hole object surrounded by solar system subsystems. This is actually an abstraction hierarchy and each system in the hierarchy is less abstract than its parent. So, for example, a galaxy is more abstract than a particle. I theorize that each system has awareness of itself and each system experiences time in exactly the same way i.e as "normal" time for itself and as (possibly) Einsteinian relative time for all other systems.

This happens because the speed of light is a constant for all systems but the distances between the component systems  in each system vary, getting longer the farther up the hierarchy we travel. This means, for example,  that the rate of change for a particle is  much, much quicker that that of of a galaxy but both perceive time as passing at the same "normal" rate. So, we experience galaxies for example as being ancient, but a galaxy experiences itself as being much younger than this. 

Note the perception of time is very closely linked to awareness and we cannot really answer fully what time is because we don't know what awareness is or what has it.

BTW The central object of all systems (including particles) is likely to have a center (of gravity) itself that is outside of time (i.e. a black hole). This is a likely location for awareness/consciousness especially considering that all events (photons) affecting the top-level state of the system end up here. It is also here that imperative events adjusting the state of the system as a result of received events are sent from. :) i.e. receive top-level event; system needs adjusting?, yes - send top level adjusting event (Hawking radiation?).

It is likely a black hole either has no time or has time that proceeds infinitely quickly. It seem to me the whole purpose of a black hole is to hold the top-level state of the system that the black hole belongs to. Events (photons) enter the black hole and cause an immediate change of state. Events exit the black hole and are immediately subject to time. Time in the black hole is not required for this mechanism.

« Last Edit: 09/03/2019 11:25:26 by mxplxxx »
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #1 on: 08/03/2019 19:44:27 »
Time is a fundamental concept. Without it you would have no energy equations. Time is implicit in the units of the gravitational constant and so underpins gravity. If it wasn't fundamental we would have ignored it. A snapshot of events does not require time but our universe is not a static snapshot.
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #2 on: 09/03/2019 00:10:10 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 08/03/2019 19:44:27
Time is a fundamental concept. Without it you would have no energy equations. Time is implicit in the units of the gravitational constant and so underpins gravity. If it wasn't fundamental we would have ignored it. A snapshot of events does not require time but our universe is not a static snapshot.
But no time before the big bang and no time at the entrance to a black hole and, possibly, no time at the point of a point particle and no time experienced by a photon. https://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-resources/time-changed-inside-a-black-hole/. Our universe is static in the sense that energy is conserved. Things change but it is only the composition of things that change, not the total energy.
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Offline jeffreyH

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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #3 on: 09/03/2019 02:48:42 »
So provide your evidence that there was no time before the big bang. That should be interesting.
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #4 on: 09/03/2019 03:08:42 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 09/03/2019 02:48:42
So provide your evidence that there was no time before the big bang. That should be interesting.
Well noted:) I should have said no time at the start of the big bang (although time passing infinitely quickly is also a possibility). As usual, I rely on the theories of  learned physicists such as Stephen Hawking (http://www.exactlywhatistime.com/physics-of-time/time-and-the-big-bang/). My point is that time may not be a fundamental concept. As far as I can see, the universe is a learning/teaching environment and time is necessary for cause and effect to occur.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2019 04:41:56 by mxplxxx »
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #5 on: 09/03/2019 09:55:52 »
If time were passing infinitely quickly then everything would be happening all at once. What was it Einstein said about that?
As for time not being fundamental try ignoring it. See how far that gets you.
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #6 on: 09/03/2019 10:10:02 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 09/03/2019 09:55:52
What was it Einstein said about that?
Not sure Einstein was aware of black holes.
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #7 on: 09/03/2019 10:12:00 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 09/03/2019 09:55:52
As for time not being fundamental try ignoring it. See how far that gets you.
We do this when we daydream and lo-and-behold time vanishes.
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #8 on: 09/03/2019 10:49:59 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 09/03/2019 09:55:52
If time were passing infinitely quickly then everything would be happening all at once. What was it Einstein said about that
Not sure he said anything about everything happening all at once, but see no reason why this could not occur. A photon observing the universe would likely see the result of everything happening at once (probably nothing, literally?). Basically, the smaller a system is the shorter the distances in it and the faster the reactions (and therefore the faster time is perceived to pass). A black hole would likely compress a system so much that all the possible reactions in it happen simultaneously.
« Last Edit: 09/03/2019 11:24:20 by mxplxxx »
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #9 on: 09/03/2019 16:31:43 »
Quote from: mxplxxx on 09/03/2019 10:12:00
Quote from: jeffreyH on 09/03/2019 09:55:52
As for time not being fundamental try ignoring it. See how far that gets you.
We do this when we daydream and lo-and-behold time vanishes.

I think you'd be better served if you stopped daydreaming and started learning.
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #10 on: 10/03/2019 08:09:31 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 09/03/2019 09:55:52
If time were passing infinitely quickly then everything would be happening all at once. What was it Einstein said about that?
Time only passes infinitely quickly where the the distance between objects is zero. "Everything" happening at once would only happen if all objects in the universe were compressed to the point where distance no longer existed in the universe. A universal black hole? (from which a big bang could possibly happen containing the state of the universe at the time it stopped evolving?). Note that a black hole can/will continue to evolve before it reached this point by the fact that it is interacting with a universe that is still evolving (i.e. in which time exists). An object entering a black hole will likely change its state (even though no time passes in the process).
« Last Edit: 10/03/2019 08:35:44 by mxplxxx »
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Offline Colin2B

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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #11 on: 10/03/2019 09:14:03 »
Quote from: mxplxxx on 10/03/2019 08:09:31
Time only passes infinitely quickly where the the distance between objects is zero.
If you think about this carefully you will realise it is untrue.
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #12 on: 10/03/2019 09:39:41 »
Einstein's theory of SpaceTime (I think) postulates that the past, present and future all exist at once. How this can occur is not part of the theory (I think). Some of our current theory may come to the rescue. Black holes give us a chance to interact with the past as they, possibly, contain all past states of the universe (and, maybe, even past universes). How to do this seems to be something for the future, although it can be surmised that we can somehow send a request for information into a black hole and receive a reply via Hawking radiation. Photons deal with the future via possibility waves. Also Electromagnetic waves (which seem closely related to photons) have electro and magnetic wave components that travel faster than light, thus allowing for the possibility that they originate in the future.
« Last Edit: 10/03/2019 09:53:59 by mxplxxx »
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #13 on: 10/03/2019 09:52:37 »
Quote from: Colin2B on 10/03/2019 09:14:03
Quote from: mxplxxx on 10/03/2019 08:09:31
Time only passes infinitely quickly where the the distance between objects is zero.
If you think about this carefully you will realise it is untrue.
It is not immediately obvious what you say. Why do you say it? With zero distance, most of physics theorem would seem to break down (as per the big bang singularity). 
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #14 on: 10/03/2019 10:57:59 »
What Einstein meant was that an object in the future has to be at a particular coordinate in order to interact with a photon emitted 'now'. This object has a fixed past and so, due to determinism, it must also have a fixed future. It's worldline can always be calculated. This excludes indeterminacy. 'God does not play dice with the universe'.

This certainly does not mean that past, present and future all exist at once. This is precisely why you have a very limited understanding of the subject.
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #15 on: 10/03/2019 11:06:13 »
 Homework: What is the connection between the increase in entropy and indeterminacy?
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #16 on: 10/03/2019 11:37:05 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 10/03/2019 10:57:59
This certainly does not mean that past, present and future all exist at once.
Pretty sure this is what is believed by lots of physicists. See
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #17 on: 10/03/2019 11:50:14 »
Quote from: jeffreyH on 10/03/2019 11:06:13
Homework: What is the connection between the increase in entropy and indeterminacy?
Will do.
Question for you. Parts of the universe appears to be expanding and contracting at the same time. Black holes getting bigger and space expanding. Is this a contradiction in physics. Or are we, unless this situation changes, going to end up with near infinite space (and a consequent huge increase in entropy (think)) plus a single, enormously massive, point that is in fact a black hole .

Note that although we have an expanding universe, the rate at which time flows stays the same (as determined by the speed of light). A photon that travels a certain distance in a certain time will take longer to travel the same distance in the future.
« Last Edit: 10/03/2019 12:34:27 by mxplxxx »
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #18 on: 10/03/2019 13:26:27 »
Quote from: mxplxxx on 10/03/2019 11:37:05
Quote from: jeffreyH on 10/03/2019 10:57:59
This certainly does not mean that past, present and future all exist at once.
Pretty sure this is what is believed by lots of physicists. See

Well you are wrong again. You do not understand the concepts of past and future light cones. The video discusses time dilation and not that the past, present and future all exist at once.
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Re: Split from "How fundamental is time?"
« Reply #19 on: 10/03/2019 13:53:39 »
Quote from: mxplxxx on 10/03/2019 11:50:14
Quote from: jeffreyH on 10/03/2019 11:06:13
Homework: What is the connection between the increase in entropy and indeterminacy?
Will do.
Question for you. Parts of the universe appears to be expanding and contracting at the same time. Black holes getting bigger and space expanding. Is this a contradiction in physics. Or are we, unless this situation changes, going to end up with near infinite space (and a consequent huge increase in entropy (think)) plus a single, enormously massive, point that is in fact a black hole .

Note that although we have an expanding universe, the rate at which time flows stays the same (as determined by the speed of light). A photon that travels a certain distance in a certain time will take longer to travel the same distance in the future.

Well you completely avoided any discussion of indeterminacy. Anyone would think that you didn't know what it was. You threw in the word entropy without actually connecting it with anything. Other that space is 'near' infinite. Care to elaborate and at the same time make some sense.
« Last Edit: 10/03/2019 14:15:48 by jeffreyH »
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