[Petrochemicals]

Yes, that 's the way the EU does "democracy". If you don't like the answer, have another vote. It worked in Ireland, after all. And it was the way Parliament was going until the Speaker ruled otherwise.

Not strictly correct, if it doesn't have to have a vote it doesnt,  as seen in macshtrict and lisbon treaties. Push it through change the goal posts. If that fails begrudge a referendum, if it fails, place fingers in ears and then have another vote. This is the problem most fundamental with the EU, due to this stance they do not have democratic authority, they cannot say to people"you voted for it" and when  something that the monied eliete do not like happens, they do not listen !  People do not like the way europe is going and european leaders didnt ask and won't listen!

[alancalverd]

The leave side unequivocally cheated.

Please tell me in what way I cheated.

[Bored chemist]

The leave side unequivocally cheated.

Please tell me in what way I cheated.

I'm not sure what sort of fallacy you used there
I think it's this one

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent

Or, it may be an interesting paradox.

You cheated by saying that I claimed you cheated- which I hadn't- but, in doing so you give me an example of the way in which you cheated- you misrepresented what I said.

The Leave campaign cheated and was held to account, and fined for it.
You need to accept that fact.

[alancalverd]

The "campaigns" were crap and as ineffectual as any last-minute yah-boo politicking. You can't overturn 50 years' experience and carefully collected data with a meaningless slogan. If membership of the EU was so bloody marvellous, why did David Cameron try to renegotiate it?

Here's how common sense prevailed:

In common with many others, I spent some time discussing the pros and cons of the EU with friends, colleagues and some public forums. The only data I used was from parliamentary library or CSO publications, or EU Directives.

I still have some faith in UK official publications that are not based on EU Directives, but you seem to think that quoting the official statistics on trade balances, cost of living and net migration is unfair.   

The EU Directives on domestic and medical electrical devices clearly misrepresent the truth, and I don't think it is cheating to use the known laws of physics to point that out.  Other Directives that affect me and my clients simply make business more complicated and expensive without adding any value: I don't think it was cheating on my part to discuss my clients' complaints.

I still haven't seen any factual argument in favor of the UK remaining in the EU, but apparently you can't be fined for vapid sentiment or lying about the difficulty of obtaining food or medicine outside the EU. Nor for gross incompetence in awarding huge public contracts to people with no assets and Ts&Cs copied from a Domino's Pizza carton - never mind the empty motorways and unopened airports!

[alancalverd]

Just to inject a hint of science into this wildly divergent topic:

It has become fairly commonplace to complain that those who voted to leave the EU are "racist". Now 90% of the UK population are Caucasian, and the objection to EU freedom of movement is an objection to other Caucasians entering the country, since the rest of the EU population is even more overwhelmingly Caucasian.

So what is the new definition of racism?

[Bored chemist]

You can't overturn 50 years' experience and carefully collected data with a meaningless slogan.

You already didn't really answer this question but...
Why do they spend so much money on it then?
(Illegally much in Leave's case)

It has become fairly commonplace to complain that those who voted to leave the EU are "racist".

...and also that they are stupid (which, as a matter of science is sort of supported by the split of remain/ leave vs level of education).
So, if they are racist and dim, they won't realise that Africa, China and India are not part of the EU.

In particular, with posters like the one shown here...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-racism-immigrant-prejudice-major-factor-leave-vote-win-study-a7801676.html

Have you forgotten the focus on Calais etc?

[Bored chemist]

I still haven't seen any factual argument in favor of the UK remaining in the EU

Yes you have:
Better control of the borders.
Less likelihood of the remaining manufacturing industry leaving.
Not crashing the economy.
Not giving the NHS to the American "healthcare" companies.
Not being generally shitty towards people who came here from elsewhere in the EU.
Not promoting  racism.

I have a feeling that I should say, "but apart from that, what have the Romans done for us?"

[Bored chemist]

You can't overturn 50 years' experience and carefully collected data with a meaningless slogan.

You already didn't really answer this question but...
Why do they spend so much money on it then?
(Illegally much in Leave's case)

It has become fairly commonplace to complain that those who voted to leave the EU are "racist".

...and also that they are stupid (which, as a matter of science is sort of supported by the split of remain/ leave vs level of education).
So, if they are racist and dim, they won't realise that Africa, China and India are not part of the EU.

In particular, with posters like the one shown here...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-racism-immigrant-prejudice-major-factor-leave-vote-win-study-a7801676.html

Have you forgotten the focus on Calais etc?

but you seem to think that quoting the official statistics on trade balances, cost of living and net migration is unfair.

Where did you come up with that nonsense?

[alancalverd]

Why do they spend so much money on it then?

For the same reason that the remain side did. It's public money, so spend it.

sort of supported by the split of remain/ leave vs level of education

. I noticed that those academics on EU -funded projects tended to support "remain" until it was pointed out that only 60% of the money the UK contributes to EU science actually returns as grants, the remainder being lost in the byzantine accounts. Among my educated friends, those not in receipt of EU funding were generally sceptical of its value.

Have you forgotten the focus on Calais etc?

No. I am quite aware of the blatant failure of the EU to apply the United Nations ruling on the treatment of refugees. The only government that did what is actually required by international law was that of the UK, as proudly stated by the Rt Hon David Cameron, MA (Oxon).

[Bored chemist]

For the same reason that the remain side did. It's public money,

No it wasn't.

I noticed that those academics on EU -funded projects

I noticed that academics are a very small fraction of the population.
Didn't you?

No. I am quite aware of the blatant failure of the EU to apply the United Nations ruling on the treatment of refugees. The only government that did what is actually required by international law was that of the UK, as proudly stated by the Rt Hon David Cameron, MA (Oxon).

Do you feel that deliberately missing the point helps debate?

[alancalverd]

From the Electoral Commission

One hundred and twenty-three organisations and individuals registered with as campaigners at the referendum. Altogether, the 123 campaigners reported spending £32,642,158 on campaigning at the referendum.
Remain: £19,309,588
Leave: £13,332,569

1.45:1 in favour of remain. Interestingly, political parties spent nearly 5 times as much on "remain" as on "leave". This suggests that they really were out of touch with public sentiment.

I noticed that academics are a very small fraction of the population.

Not round here, nor on the  telly or in the papers. Or in positions of direct influence on the young. And since more than half of the population now go to "uni", it's clearly an aspirational class. 

[Petrochemicals]

Not round here, nor on the  telly or in the papers. Or in positions of direct influence on the young. And since more than half of the population now go to "uni", it's clearly an aspirational class. 

But the academics are all incorrect, out of touch morons ?

[alancalverd]

they won't realise that Africa, China and India are not part of the EU.

citation needed.

Here's the story so far.

More than half of the electorate had lived all their lives under the status quo.
A government committed to  remain had been elected with an increased majority and had negotiated improvements in the status quo.
Neither major political party took an overt stand on the matter to the extent of mandating MPs, but they spent five times as much on remain publicity than on leave.
The meeja published scare stories about  leaving (including substituting "crashing out" and "cliff edge" for "WTO"),
the EU issued all sorts of dire warnings,
and anyone caught thinking about leaving was dubbed a stupid racist.

and the majority voted to leave.  This suggests to me that the status quo was just a bit unsatisfactory.

Being magnanimous in victory, I will say no more. Perhaps others will learn the complementary British virtue of being gracious in defeat. I think an important cricket match is about to begin.

[Bored chemist]

...Altogether, the 123 campaigners reported spending...

Leave's  dishonesty was that they failed to report their actual spending.
So, your point was...?

citation needed.

No.
I don't need to cite evidence for a conditional cause unless you are saying that the condition is always true.
Are you saying that it is true for all Leave voters that "they are racist and dim"?
(also, you don't have to be from India Africa or China to be a victim of racism.)
https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/news/local/aberdeen-man-in-court-over-racist-brexit-rant-to-his-dog1/

And, on a related note.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/20/racism-on-the-rise-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-trump-go-home-racist-tweet-genius-aoc-ilhan-omar-a9037571.html

[alancalverd]

What has the world come to, when even the courts confuse nationality with race?

The bloke in the picture looks distinctly Caucasian, probably descended inter alia from prehistoric immigrants from the Caucasus. He was complaining about those more recent immigrants from the same area who call themselves Poles or Romanians rather than Brits, but, like Brits, may or may not be of Caucasian descent.

Trump is an idiot.

Never mind! Your wish may come true, with Caretaker Comrade Corbyn leading the country back to bankruptcy and servitude and deporting the Jews back to....er...Middlesex, actually. Heck, as a Surrey supporter I even fail the cricket test!
   

[Bored chemist]

Caretaker Comrade Corbyn leading the country back to bankruptcy

That's the Tory's job.

[Bored chemist]

It has become fairly commonplace to complain that those who voted to leave the EU are "racist".

Because of things like this
https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/migrant-nhs-nurses-facing-more-3229935?fbclid=IwAR0wxJUr026IcfQ-llURwuMRxB-AxVTDNKaZ2pNHeuibHodm5IycOVGUF-s

[alancalverd]

A 31-year-old Spanish nurse of more than four years, who has not been named, said: "Even if I have been here for four years, they don’t trust you

Ryan Inumerable, who is originally from the Philippines, said: "I've been in the UK for at least 18 years and all that time since working for the NHS, I can say that I've never experienced any form of discrimination both from staff members, patients or their carers.

So not promoting a Caucasian woman is racism, and an Asian who says he has never experienced discrimination is a liar??? Come on, BC, try reading the story as well as the headlines. The nearest they got to an actual fact was

Dr Spiliopoulos said both EU and non-EU nurses who she spoke to explained the referendum result has been interpreted as a "signal that migrants are not welcome in the UK"

Yes, to a considerable extent that is true, not only because it has been government policy for years (Home Office "hostile environment") but because of the depressing effect of cheap EU labor on wage rates. Migrants (almost entirely caucasian) from low-wage economies in the EU are not welcome (except by employers), hence (in part) the Brexit vote: cause and effect in that order, and nothing to do with race.

[Bored chemist]

Yes, to a considerable extent that is true, not only because it has been government policy for years (Home Office "hostile environment")

And nobody believes politicians, whatever they say.

make up your mind.

[jeffreyH]

So Brexit is a science experiment then? Strange, I thought it was the art of political game playing. Maybe I have stumbled onto a political science forum then. Who knew?