The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. Non Life Sciences
  3. Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology
  4. why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: 1 ... 16 17 [18] 19 20 ... 23   Go Down

why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?

  • 454 Replies
  • 134072 Views
  • 6 Tags

0 Members and 11 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21136
  • Activity:
    69.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #340 on: 23/02/2024 21:00:44 »
I would class a Feynman diagram as a mathematical model, as, I think, would Feynman.

Experimental evidence is that some electromagnetic radiation is generated or absorbed in discrete amounts, as evidenced by line spectra and photon-counting receptors, but there are no inherent discontinuities in the radiofrequency spectrum, and the photon model doesn't predict diffraction.

Some folk still talk about "duality" but that's clearly nonsense. Only a deity can change its form ad lib (in Greek mythology) or exist in three distinct physical forms at once (Christian mythology). Real phenomena sometimes need more than one descriptive and predictive model.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 



Offline Origin

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 2248
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 210 times
  • Nothing of importance
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #341 on: 23/02/2024 23:30:06 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 23/02/2024 08:42:05
The veracity of information doesn't depend on the form of its source. It can be statement of a teacher, or colleague, textbooks, online encyclopedia, news, TV, website, blogs, social media, or AI models.
Perhaps that's the issue.  Without critical thinking skills, all sources no matter how unreliable seem to be on equal footing?
Logged
 

Offline varsigma

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 412
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 24 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #342 on: 24/02/2024 05:49:19 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 23/02/2024 21:00:44
I would class a Feynman diagram as a mathematical model, as, I think, would Feynman.
I would say, if I was asked, that a Feynman diagram is a representation of a(n element of a) symmetry group. Namely U(1) symmetry. The fermions are there for closure (that's over the algebra).

With the caveat that the symmetries are not exact according to modern theories.
« Last Edit: 24/02/2024 05:52:04 by varsigma »
Logged
 

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11779
  • Activity:
    86%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #343 on: 24/02/2024 09:56:28 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 23/02/2024 10:18:20
Huygen's construction doesn't purport to explain anything.
It would make it useless.
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11779
  • Activity:
    86%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #344 on: 24/02/2024 10:06:12 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 23/02/2024 10:24:27
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 23/02/2024 08:42:05
The veracity of information doesn't depend on the form of its source. It can be statement of a teacher, or colleague, textbooks, online encyclopedia, news, TV, website, blogs, social media, or AI models.
But it has to be correct, and if it is in response to a question, it has to be relevant and informative. Better still if it is actually helpful.

One line of code:

IF CHAR=<?> THEN PRINT "the answer may be found in textbooks". 

How's that for efficient programming, in genuine 1960s Algol!
Gemini's answer is better than most sources found online which I posted on the first page. Some of them are physics courses for students. It's even better than Feynman's answer, which was a leading scientist.
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 



Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11779
  • Activity:
    86%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #345 on: 24/02/2024 10:17:02 »
Quote from: varsigma on 24/02/2024 05:49:19
Quote from: alancalverd on 23/02/2024 21:00:44
I would class a Feynman diagram as a mathematical model, as, I think, would Feynman.
I would say, if I was asked, that a Feynman diagram is a representation of a(n element of a) symmetry group. Namely U(1) symmetry. The fermions are there for closure (that's over the algebra).

With the caveat that the symmetries are not exact according to modern theories.
How can Feynman's diagram be used to explain diffraction and interference?
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11779
  • Activity:
    86%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #346 on: 24/02/2024 10:26:37 »
Quote from: Origin on 23/02/2024 23:30:06
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 23/02/2024 08:42:05
The veracity of information doesn't depend on the form of its source. It can be statement of a teacher, or colleague, textbooks, online encyclopedia, news, TV, website, blogs, social media, or AI models.
Perhaps that's the issue.  Without critical thinking skills, all sources no matter how unreliable seem to be on equal footing?
That's why Jordan Peterson said that people who are not that smart are better to be conservative, and follow the mainstream.
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21136
  • Activity:
    69.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #347 on: 24/02/2024 16:30:11 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/02/2024 10:06:12
Gemini's answer is better than most sources found online which I posted on the first page.
Which is a great shame, because it is complete garbage.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21136
  • Activity:
    69.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #348 on: 24/02/2024 16:35:49 »
Quote from: varsigma on 24/02/2024 05:49:19
I would say, if I was asked, that a Feynman diagram is a representation of a(n element of a) symmetry group. Namely U(1) symmetry.
Or to quote Wikipedia
Quote
In theoretical physics, a Feynman diagram is a pictorial representation of the mathematical expressions describing the behavior and interaction of subatomic particles.
which is pretty much what I said.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/02/2024 10:17:02
How can Feynman's diagram be used to explain diffraction and interference?
It can't, because it is a representation of particle interactions, not waves.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 



Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21136
  • Activity:
    69.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #349 on: 24/02/2024 16:40:42 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/02/2024 09:56:28
Quote from: alancalverd on 23/02/2024 10:18:20
Huygen's construction doesn't purport to explain anything.
It would make it useless.
We have very accurate models for predicting sunrise and high tides, but don't explain either. Try telling a mariner that they are useless.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline varsigma

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • 412
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 24 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #350 on: 24/02/2024 18:13:38 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/02/2024 16:35:49
which is pretty much what I said.
There it is. We are saying basically the same thing. At least I think we are.

Feynman diagrams are composable, There are sums over all the ways a photon can be emitted and absorbed. How many do you need to glue together to represent this? That was I think, what Feynman was using his "new" notation for.
Logged
 

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11779
  • Activity:
    86%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #351 on: 25/02/2024 07:50:40 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/02/2024 16:40:42
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/02/2024 09:56:28
Quote from: alancalverd on 23/02/2024 10:18:20
Huygen's construction doesn't purport to explain anything.
It would make it useless.
We have very accurate models for predicting sunrise and high tides, but don't explain either. Try telling a mariner that they are useless.
What is predicted by Huygens construction, when a laser beam hit the edge of a totally reflective surface?
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21136
  • Activity:
    69.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #352 on: 25/02/2024 08:34:05 »
Edge (dimension → 0) or surface (dimension → ∞)? One produces diffraction, the other produces reflection. Real objects fit somewhere between.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 



Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11779
  • Activity:
    86%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #353 on: 25/02/2024 09:37:11 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 25/02/2024 08:34:05
Edge (dimension → 0) or surface (dimension → ∞)? One produces diffraction, the other produces reflection. Real objects fit somewhere between.
Point, 0 dimension.
Edge, 1 dimension.
Surface, 2 dimensions.
Volume, 3 dimensions.
« Last Edit: 25/02/2024 10:00:58 by hamdani yusuf »
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21136
  • Activity:
    69.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #354 on: 25/02/2024 14:17:59 »
OK,I wasn't being pedantic enough!

The length of an edge is immaterial to the Huygens construction of diffraction. All that matters is that, perpendicular to the wavefront, it can be mapped to a point without losing important information.

You can't usefully map a surface to a point.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11779
  • Activity:
    86%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #355 on: 29/02/2024 10:04:32 »
I searched for an image of knife edge diffraction.
Here's what I found.

http://www.mike-willis.com/Tutorial/PF7.htm

The question is, how much of the wave is diffracted? How to determine the angle?

* Screenshot 2024-02-29 170408.png (258 kB, 793x764 - viewed 275 times.)
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21136
  • Activity:
    69.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #356 on: 29/02/2024 11:29:03 »
A rather blunt knife, but at least commensurate with the wavelength, so Huygens is a good approximation.
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 



Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11779
  • Activity:
    86%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #357 on: 01/03/2024 02:24:44 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 29/02/2024 11:29:03
A rather blunt knife, but at least commensurate with the wavelength, so Huygens is a good approximation.
Do the characteristics of the barrier have any effect?
What does Huygens' principle say about this? Is there any quantitative statement?
What's your threshold for being good?
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 

Offline alancalverd

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 21136
  • Activity:
    69.5%
  • Thanked: 60 times
  • Life is too short for instant coffee
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #358 on: 01/03/2024 09:41:43 »
Huygens is a mathematical construction involving points, lines, and absolute absorption and reflection. Anything that isn't a mathematical point (zero dimension) or line (1 dimension), or is a real material, is an approximation.

If the "edge" is actually a surface, and/or the source has finite width, you need to consider the contribution of all the points on the surface and the source. Intuitively (though I guess ES probably has an appropriate integral) this means that the diffraction pattern becomes more diffuse if either is wider than λ.   
Logged
Helping stem the tide of ignorance
 

Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • *******
  • 11779
  • Activity:
    86%
  • Thanked: 285 times
Re: why do a lot of people confuse between interference and diffraction?
« Reply #359 on: 02/03/2024 09:39:30 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/03/2024 02:24:44
Quote from: alancalverd on 29/02/2024 11:29:03
A rather blunt knife, but at least commensurate with the wavelength, so Huygens is a good approximation.
Do the characteristics of the barrier have any effect?
What does Huygens' principle say about this? Is there any quantitative statement?
What's your threshold for being good?
Don't forget that I also have made the same experiment in microwave frequency.

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/03/2017 05:18:47
I have uploaded new video showing diffraction in microwave frequency.


Basically, the experiment result leads us to conclude that diffraction comes from the material blocking the microwave path. When the obstruction is opaque enough, we find no diffraction. It's similar to my experiment using laser showing non-diffractive obstruction.

This result is not widely known yet.
 
« Last Edit: 02/03/2024 09:41:57 by hamdani yusuf »
Logged
Unexpected results come from false assumptions.
 



  • Print
Pages: 1 ... 16 17 [18] 19 20 ... 23   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags: interference  / diffraction  / #physics  / #diffraction  / #optics  / #interference 
 
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 0.335 seconds with 68 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.