[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Have you ever worked with high powered radio transmission or power distribution transformers?

Yes, I have.

What's the proportion of transmitter power heating up the antenna compared to the power transmitting radio wave into space around it?

Now, here are a couple of questions for you.
What is the typical thermal velocity of an electron in a conductor near room temperature and
What is the drift velocity of an electron in a typical conductor in a transformer or antenna?
I don't need any great precision- just order of magnitude is fine.

I never measured them.  Have you?

[Bored chemist]

If the electrons stop moving, will they still have negative temperature?

It isn't the electrons that have a negative temperature, it's the ensemble of excited and unexcited neon atoms.

If you understood the science, you wouldn't be asking questions that make no sense.

Try learning.

[Bored chemist]

What's the proportion of transmitter power heating up the antenna compared to the power transmitting radio wave into space around it?

Who cares?
Why do  they care?
In an ideal world, no energy is dissipated as heat in the antenna, it's all transmitted.
In practice the reflected power may be larger than that lost to heat via resistance.

I never measured them.  Have you?

I'm sensible enough to usually let other people do the actual measurements for me.
On the other hand, I did once do one of them.
Measuring the speed of sound in air is a high-school experiment.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/z8d2mp3/revision/3#:~:text=Clap%2Decho%20method,to%20the%20wall%20and%20back).
I'm pretty sure we got an answer near 330m/s.
And I know how sound works, so I know that the speed of the molecules in air is about the speed of sound.
And I understand the equipartition principle.
So I know that the thermal KE of the electrons in a wire is the same as that of the air molecules (at the same temperature as the wire).

And I know that an air molecule weighs about 60,000 times as much as an electron, so , since they have the same KE, the electrons must be travelling square root (60,000) times as fast.
That's about 80 km/s.
It's only an approximation, but it's good enough to make the point.

It's also fairly easy to find the drift speed of an electron.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drift_velocity#Numerical_example
Tells you " the electrons are flowing at the rate of 23 μm/s".

So, now that you know that the current through a wire only changes the speeds of the electrons by a tiny fraction- about a part in a billion- do you see why it doesn't really matter if the transmitter is turned on or off?
 

More importantly, do you understand that if you actually knew science, you would already have known that?
Do you realise you wouldn't have said

Electrons on a radio transmission antenna or a power distribution transformer may have high kinetic energy, but we don't usually say that they have high temperature.

because you would have known that the use of electrons in an antenna hardly changes their KE at all.

Do you understand how, if you had spent time learning, you would ave avoided looking stupid?

[alancalverd]

And I know how sound works, so I know that the speed of the molecules in air is about the speed of sound.

Except that they don't actually go anywhere! The speed of sound is the phase velocity, not the group velocity of the air mass. Beware of adding to HY's deliberate confusion!

This misunderstanding caused lots of problems in the music business  during the major COVID panic. Brass instruments were first banned, then only permitted if fitted with a particle filter, and all the brass section had to face the same way "so as not to project bugs at high velocity towards one another". Clearly nonsense. I play the tuba, and exhale at pretty much the same rate with or without the instrument in place. Indeed since the exit port is about 50 cm in diameter, the exit group velocity is a factor of 10,000  lower than from my 0.5 cm nostrils! Even more stupid was the requirement to cover the bell of a saxophone, where the music comes out of the umpteen holes in the side!

If you think of a loudspeaker (I also play bass guitar) it makes the same sound with no net air flow. The only reason we blow into wind instruments is to make the initial excitation (brass lip buzz, woodwind reed vibration, or flute/whistle pure edge tone) from which the resonant horn then selects (more or less, depending on your skill) the desired frequency. 

Sound in a gas is a series of longitudinal pressure waves: each molecule moves forwards and backwards, ending up in pretty much the same place. Now the same applies to electrons in a naive model of an antenna. They may all be jiggling about at random, but what is propagating along the wire is a density wave, not a gross displacement.

[Bored chemist]

And I know how sound works, so I know that the speed of the molecules in air is about the speed of sound.

Except that they don't actually go anywhere! The speed of sound is the phase velocity, not the group velocity of the air mass. Beware of adding to HY's deliberate confusion!

This misunderstanding caused lots of problems in the music business  during the major COVID panic. Brass instruments were first banned, then only permitted if fitted with a particle filter, and all the brass section had to face the same way "so as not to project bugs at high velocity towards one another". Clearly nonsense. I play the tuba, and exhale at pretty much the same rate with or without the instrument in place. Indeed since the exit port is about 50 cm in diameter, the exit group velocity is a factor of 10,000  lower than from my 0.5 cm nostrils! Even more stupid was the requirement to cover the bell of a saxophone, where the music comes out of the umpteen holes in the side!

If you think of a loudspeaker (I also play bass guitar) it makes the same sound with no net air flow. The only reason we blow into wind instruments is to make the initial excitation (brass lip buzz, woodwind reed vibration, or flute/whistle pure edge tone) from which the resonant horn then selects (more or less, depending on your skill) the desired frequency. 

Sound in a gas is a series of longitudinal pressure waves: each molecule moves forwards and backwards, ending up in pretty much the same place. Now the same applies to electrons in a naive model of an antenna. They may all be jiggling about at random, but what is propagating along the wire is a density wave, not a gross displacement.

That may be the record for "largest number of words used to explain that I don't understand the meaning of the word "about".

[alancalverd]

Not sure whether that is an admission or a denial, but it was really for HY's education and the amusement of others.

Perhaps you should enter politics: there's a job on offer this week with good pay and no liabilities. Anyone who can state that 80,000 is "about" 300 with a straight face is destined for at least Home Secretary (yes, you can get all the illegal immigrants on one plane) or Health Secretary (we had to kill about 300 people to save the NHS), but as Prime Minister you can say anything you like and walk on water (the slime will support you).

[Bored chemist]

Not sure whether that is an admission or a denial, but it was really for HY's education and the amusement of others.

Snap.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

If the electrons stop moving, will they still have negative temperature?

It isn't the electrons that have a negative temperature, it's the ensemble of excited and unexcited neon atoms.

If you understood the science, you wouldn't be asking questions that make no sense.

Try learning.

Let me try.

If the atoms stop moving, will they still have negative temperature?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Who cares?
Why do  they care?
In an ideal world, no energy is dissipated as heat in the antenna, it's all transmitted.
In practice the reflected power may be larger than that lost to heat via resistance.

The business owners.
If their antenna is too thin, or the material has too high specific resistance, then heat dissipation won't be negligible anymore. In extreme cases, the antenna can melt down and stop working.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

If you can't explain something to a first year student, then you haven't really understood it.
Richard Feynman

Although I realize that some concepts can have high complexity they require a lot of connections that they need a lot of memory space, more than an average human can have. So, I'd like to replace the first year student with an AI which has adequate resources to cover the whole concept. It would be better if the AI also has natural language processing capability, so the communication with the human explainer can be free from unnecessary language barrier.

[Bored chemist]

If the atoms stop moving

They can't, because they are a gas.
Try harder.

[Bored chemist]

The business owners.
If their antenna is too thin, or the material has too high specific resistance, then heat dissipation won't be negligible anymore. In extreme cases, the antenna can melt down and stop working.

But nobody would be so stupid as to design an antenna that way.
The resistive losses are usually small compared to others.
Oh, hang on I already told you that.

In an ideal world, no energy is dissipated as heat in the antenna, it's all transmitted.
In practice the reflected power may be larger than that lost to heat via resistance.

The point remains, the speed of the electrons is almost entirely  governed by the temperature of the wire.

You seem to sort of understand that the people who use transmitters try to reduce the resistive losses.
So the change in temperature when they turn the transmitter on or off will be small.

So this

Electrons on a radio transmission antenna or a power distribution transformer may have high kinetic energy, but we don't usually say that they have high temperature.

is still nonsense.

[Bored chemist]

Although I realize that some concepts can have high complexity they require a lot of connections that they need a lot of memory space, more than an average human can have.... the human explainer ...

You seem to think the the human doing the explaining has more memory space than the student.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

If the atoms stop moving

They can't, because they are a gas.
Try harder.

Use solid state laser.

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

But nobody would be so stupid as to design an antenna that way.
The resistive losses are usually small compared to others.
Oh, hang on I already told you that.

That's because they cared, unlike you here.

Who cares?
Why do  they care?

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Although I realize that some concepts can have high complexity they require a lot of connections that they need a lot of memory space, more than an average human can have.... the human explainer ...

You seem to think the the human doing the explaining has more memory space than the student.

You seem to think that the words "some" and "average" are meaningless.

[Bored chemist]

But nobody would be so stupid as to design an antenna that way.
The resistive losses are usually small compared to others.
Oh, hang on I already told you that.

That's because they cared, unlike you here.

Who cares?
Why do  they care?

The problem was solved ages ago when someone did the design.
Why would you still care now?


In any event...

this

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 23/07/2022 04:54:12
Electrons on a radio transmission antenna or a power distribution transformer may have high kinetic energy, but we don't usually say that they have high temperature.


is still nonsense.

The kinetic energy of the electrons is dependent on temperature, not on whether or not it is an antenna.
Do you accept that?

[Bored chemist]

Although I realize that some concepts can have high complexity they require a lot of connections that they need a lot of memory space, more than an average human can have.... the human explainer ...

You seem to think the the human doing the explaining has more memory space than the student.

You seem to think that the words "some" and "average" are meaningless.

No
Try again.

Use solid state laser.

But I'm clearly talking about a laser that is a gas laser.
I only need to show one example of a case where your idea is impossible to show that your idea is wrong.
It doesn't matter if your idea works in other circumstances.

Do you act like this in real life, or only on line?

[alancalverd]

If you can't explain something to a first year student, then you haven't really understood it.
Richard Feynman

Although I realize that some concepts can have high complexity they require a lot of connections that they need a lot of memory space, more than an average human can have. So, I'd like to replace the first year student with an AI which has adequate resources to cover the whole concept. It would be better if the AI also has natural language processing capability, so the communication with the human explainer can be free from unnecessary language barrier.

Most schoolkids understand the concept of temperature. At least we used to in the 1950s. No point in teaching it to any machine (apart from a thermostat - and they seem to grasp it immediately time).

[hamdani yusuf (OP)]

Not sure whether that is an admission or a denial, but it was really for HY's education and the amusement of others.

It seems like you got unexpected results. It means that you have made at least one false assumption.