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  4. what is temperature?
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what is temperature?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #580 on: 02/08/2022 00:00:00 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 14:43:32
What would happen if they interact?
What do you mean by "they"?
Those two objects with negative temperature but different magnitude.

Quote from: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 14:43:32
Could you at least try to think about your questions a bit before you ask them?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #581 on: 02/08/2022 10:29:21 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/08/2022 00:00:00
Quote from: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 14:43:32
What would happen if they interact?
What do you mean by "they"?
Those two objects with negative temperature but different magnitude.

Quote from: Bored chemist on 01/08/2022 14:43:32
Could you at least try to think about your questions a bit before you ask them?

It depends on the objects and what sort of negative temperatures they have.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #582 on: 03/08/2022 13:54:43 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/08/2022 10:29:21
It depends on the objects and what sort of negative temperatures they have.
How many kinds of negative temperature are there?  What makes them different?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #583 on: 03/08/2022 14:27:05 »
In a HeNe laser the electronic temperature is negative.
In the ammonia maser the rotational  (I think- might be something odd like a spin flip) temperature is negative.
In the hydrogen maser the electron spin temperature is negative.

There are other sorts too.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #584 on: 08/08/2022 03:35:34 »
Here's my first video on investigation of thermodynamics.
Demonstrating the effect of emissivity on infrared thermal camera measurement.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #585 on: 08/08/2022 11:11:55 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 03/08/2022 14:27:05
In a HeNe laser the electronic temperature is negative.
In the ammonia maser the rotational  (I think- might be something odd like a spin flip) temperature is negative.
In the hydrogen maser the electron spin temperature is negative.

There are other sorts too.
Negative value can be assigned to a physical parameter if it negates or cancels out the positive value of the same physical parameter. Otherwise, it shouldn't be assigned a negative value.


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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #586 on: 08/08/2022 11:58:52 »
Gravitational potential is very real and always negative.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #587 on: 08/08/2022 12:13:09 »
A Recipe for Cooling Atoms to Almost Absolute Zero
Quote
NASA’s Cold Atom Lab aboard the International Space Station cools atoms down to a billionth of a degree above absolute zero, or the temperature at which atoms should stop moving entirely. Nowhere in the universe are there atoms that reach this temperature naturally. But how do scientists accomplish this feat? It’s a three-step process that starts with scientists hitting the atoms with precisely-tuned lasers to slow them down.
 
The colder atoms are, the slower they move, and the easier they are to study. Ultracold atoms can also form a fifth state of matter, called a Bose-Einstein condensate (BEC). Learning about the fundamental properties of atoms has laid the foundation for technologies that most of us use every day, such as computers. As the first ultracold atom facility in Earth orbit, Cold Atom Lab is opening up new avenues for investigation.

Here are some other videos explaining about laser cooling.




From 2:22 of the last video, we can infer that to make it work, the frequency of the laser is set to be slightly lower than transition frequency of the atoms to be cooled. Thus, a certain frequency of laser can cool some type of atoms, but heat other types of atoms instead. Which means that it doesn't always have negative temperature.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #588 on: 08/08/2022 12:49:24 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/08/2022 11:11:55
Negative value can be assigned to a physical parameter if it negates or cancels out the positive value of the same physical parameter.
So what?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #589 on: 08/08/2022 12:51:13 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/08/2022 12:13:09
Which means that it doesn't always have negative temperature.
No
You have missed the point.
It's sad, but no surprise.
You just don't seem to have what it takes to understand this.
You should probably stop wasting time trying.
The process called "laser cooling" but that is a misnomer.
You don't need a laser to do it.
Using a laser is by far the most sensible way but, in principle you could use a different light source.

So laser cooling has nothing to do with the negative temperature in a laser.
« Last Edit: 08/08/2022 12:57:08 by Bored chemist »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #590 on: 08/08/2022 13:24:10 »
The concept of negative temperature derives from a definition of temperature in terms of entropy. All it means is a condition where adding energy to a system decreases its entropy.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #591 on: 09/08/2022 03:01:31 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 08/08/2022 12:51:13
Using a laser is by far the most sensible way but, in principle you could use a different light source.
What other kinds of light can be used for cooling? Do you have any source?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #592 on: 09/08/2022 03:03:44 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/08/2022 13:24:10
The concept of negative temperature derives from a definition of temperature in terms of entropy. All it means is a condition where adding energy to a system decreases its entropy.
Do laser cutters decrease entropy?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #593 on: 09/08/2022 04:52:45 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/08/2022 11:58:52
Gravitational potential is very real and always negative.

Quote
In classical mechanics, the gravitational potential at a location is equal to the work (energy transferred) per unit mass that would be needed to move an object to that location from a fixed reference location. It is analogous to the electric potential with mass playing the role of charge. The reference location, where the potential is zero, is by convention infinitely far away from any mass, resulting in a negative potential at any finite distance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_potential
When the reference location has negative gravitational potential, gravitational potential at some location can have positive value.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #594 on: 09/08/2022 04:58:21 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 08/08/2022 12:49:24
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/08/2022 11:11:55
Negative value can be assigned to a physical parameter if it negates or cancels out the positive value of the same physical parameter.
So what?
If it cannot negate positive value of the same parameter, it should not be assigned a negative value.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #595 on: 09/08/2022 05:09:38 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 03/08/2022 14:27:05
In a HeNe laser the electronic temperature is negative.
What's the magnitude, in Kelvin?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #596 on: 09/08/2022 10:42:20 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/08/2022 03:03:44
Do laser cutters decrease entropy?
no.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #597 on: 09/08/2022 11:02:56 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 09/08/2022 10:42:20
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/08/2022 03:03:44
Do laser cutters decrease entropy?
no.
So, they don't have negative temperature.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #598 on: 09/08/2022 16:05:44 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/08/2022 04:58:21
Quote from: Bored chemist on 08/08/2022 12:49:24
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/08/2022 11:11:55
Negative value can be assigned to a physical parameter if it negates or cancels out the positive value of the same physical parameter.
So what?
If it cannot negate positive value of the same parameter, it should not be assigned a negative value.

But it can so... what was your point?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #599 on: 09/08/2022 16:07:54 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/08/2022 05:09:38
Quote from: Bored chemist on 03/08/2022 14:27:05
In a HeNe laser the electronic temperature is negative.
What's the magnitude, in Kelvin?
I'd have to do lots of complicated maths but, for the sake of discussion, let's pretend that I have done it and the answer is minus 5000K.

What use are you going to make of that information?
Because, if you don't have a good answer, I'm going to take it as further proof that you are a troll.
It will prove that you were just trying to trick me into doing lots of pointless work.
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