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  4. what is temperature?
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what is temperature?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #620 on: 13/08/2022 04:55:27 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 13/08/2022 01:17:32
You can do it with a  conventional light source and a monochromator and collimator , but it's horribly inefficient.

But, in principle, you can do it.
Yet no one has come up with experimental results to determine if your principle is correct.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #621 on: 13/08/2022 11:33:08 »
You did!

Like the man said, if you are trying to efficiently stimulate a quantum phenomenon, you need to use tightly specified photons. LED spectra are fairly narrow but difficult to modify, unlike a tuneable laser. 
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #622 on: 13/08/2022 12:18:02 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/08/2022 04:55:27
Quote from: Bored chemist on 13/08/2022 01:17:32
You can do it with a  conventional light source and a monochromator and collimator , but it's horribly inefficient.

But, in principle, you can do it.
Yet no one has come up with experimental results to determine if your principle is correct.
No.
Because every single experiment with light- all of them- every single one- has shown that you can change the light source and not affect the outcome as long as you maintain the polarisation, intensity and spectrum.

Every experiment where someone first did it with candle light or sunlight and which has subsequently been repeated using artificial light is a demonstration that your bizarre idea is wrong.

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #623 on: 15/08/2022 07:26:59 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 13/08/2022 12:18:02
Every experiment where someone first did it with candle light or sunlight and which has subsequently been repeated using artificial light is a demonstration that your bizarre idea is wrong.
Why can't I find any link to the report?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #624 on: 15/08/2022 08:54:35 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 15/08/2022 07:26:59
Quote from: Bored chemist on 13/08/2022 12:18:02
Every experiment where someone first did it with candle light or sunlight and which has subsequently been repeated using artificial light is a demonstration that your bizarre idea is wrong.
Why can't I find any link to the report?
Because you are the only person who thinks it is plausible to write a report on every single instance of an observation of Youngs slits (for example) done using a tungsten lamp or an LED )or anything other than the daylight which Young used).
How would you go about writing a report on an experiment done in every high-school physics class?

Did you not understand that?

Every time someone uses some other sort of light source, and gets the same result, they prove that a photon doesn't "remember" what source it came from.

How did you imagine that they might?
Did you think photons carried notebooks?

This is what I mean when I say you need to learn some science; it avoids you saying silly things like that.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #625 on: 16/08/2022 05:04:18 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 15/08/2022 08:54:35
Because you are the only person who thinks it is plausible to write a report on every single instance of an observation of Youngs slits (for example) done using a tungsten lamp or an LED )or anything other than the daylight which Young used).
How would you go about writing a report on an experiment done in every high-school physics class?
If something is important enough or interesting enough, someone somewhere will write something about it. I think it's an interesting phenomenon, if it's true though.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #626 on: 16/08/2022 05:06:21 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 15/08/2022 08:54:35
Every time someone uses some other sort of light source, and gets the same result, they prove that a photon doesn't "remember" what source it came from.
Most of the time, shining light on an object would increase its temperature instead of decreasing it.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #627 on: 16/08/2022 05:13:48 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 15/08/2022 08:54:35
How did you imagine that they might?
Did you think photons carried notebooks?
How do you think that photon can go backward in time like in quantum eraser experiment? Or be in two places at once?
You can accept that weird things actually happened in an observed phenomenon, or modify the model you use to describe it by changing one or more assumptions to make it less weird.
« Last Edit: 16/08/2022 05:24:12 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #628 on: 16/08/2022 05:19:15 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 15/08/2022 08:54:35
This is what I mean when I say you need to learn some science; it avoids you saying silly things like that.
I learn science because it's necessary for achieving the universal terminal goal. Any other things are secondary bonus.

Quote
Philosophy of Science - Replication
This video examines some of the challenges involved in determining whether or not an experimental result has been replicated.

-- Collins, Harry. (1985). Changing Order: Replication and Induction in Scientific Practice. London: Sage.
-- Norton, John. (2015). "Replicability of experiment." Theoria 30(2): 229-248. https://sites.pitt.edu/~jdnorton/pape...
-- Popper, Karl. (1959). The Logic of Scientific Discovery. New York: Harper & Row.
-- Ramscar, Michael. "The unspeakable in pursuit of the unrepeatable." https://ramscar.wordpress.com/2015/08...

0:00 - Introduction
2:49 - Two types of replication
8:19 - Seven steps to replication
10:13 - 1 What is the subject matter?
13:37 - 2 What is science?
14:59 - 3 Identity of the experimenter
18:03 - 4 What is an experiment?
24:54 - 5 Is the experiment a competent copy?
32:29 - 6 Is the result positive?
40:29 - 7 Replication
« Last Edit: 16/08/2022 05:29:52 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #629 on: 16/08/2022 08:56:31 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/08/2022 05:06:21
Most of the time, shining light on an object would increase its temperature instead of decreasing it.
Nobody has ever suggested anything else, have they.
So that was s silly thing to say, wasn't it?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #630 on: 16/08/2022 08:59:35 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/08/2022 05:04:18
If something is important enough or interesting enough, someone somewhere will write something about it.
So, you think " I'm a physics teacher; today in class I demonstrated that the double slit experiment worked- just the same as it has for the last hundred years" is important enough, or interesting enough to get written up?

Really?
You think that thousands of school repetitions of an experiment will get published?
Why would anyone bother?
What's "important enough or interesting enough" about it?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #631 on: 16/08/2022 09:00:39 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/08/2022 05:19:15
I learn science
No you do not.
That's why we have to keep repeating stuff, and explaining it to you repeatedly.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #632 on: 17/08/2022 23:50:54 »
As usual, philosophers try to tell other people that they don't understand what they are doing.

Obviously you can't precisely replicate an experiment.The stars have moved in the firmament and some of the original atoms have disintegrated. But that isn't the point. The questions scientists ask are "does the experiment support the hypothesis?" and "are the results sufficiently robust to invest money or entrust lives to their application?" So for the most part we are interested either in partial replication with known perturbations (test of robustness) , or reasonable approximations to the original experiment (trying to minimise random errors and systematic uncertainties).  And just occasionally we ask "has he made a serious mistake, is he lying, or have we really been getting it wrong for the last 20 years?" To which the answer, in my experience, is "sometimes", "rarely", and "surprisingly often". But you don't usually need precise replication to come to those conclusions.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #633 on: 18/08/2022 05:15:57 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/08/2022 08:56:31
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/08/2022 05:06:21
Most of the time, shining light on an object would increase its temperature instead of decreasing it.
Nobody has ever suggested anything else, have they.
So that was s silly thing to say, wasn't it?
If facts sound silly to you, maybe there's something wrong with you.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #634 on: 18/08/2022 05:17:55 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 16/08/2022 09:00:39
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/08/2022 05:19:15
I learn science
No you do not.
That's why we have to keep repeating stuff, and explaining it to you repeatedly.
Repeating false things doesn't make them any truer.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #635 on: 18/08/2022 07:04:28 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 18/08/2022 05:15:57
If facts sound silly to you, maybe there's something wrong with you.
There's such a thing as context.
If I ask for directions to the railway station, and you tell me that the capital of Peru is Lima, you sound silly, don't you?

Nobody had suggested anything  other than the idea that shining light on something normally makes it hotter, had they?
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 18/08/2022 05:17:55
Repeating false things doesn't make them any truer.
Again, nobody had said otherwise, had they?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #636 on: 18/08/2022 12:11:55 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/08/2022 09:17:53
In principle, what you actually get is an infinitely negative temperature.
Doesn't this sound silly to you?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #637 on: 18/08/2022 15:04:11 »
It certainly places limits on the value of defining temperature (which we can measure) in terms of entropy (which we can't).

It happens, for perfectly good reasons, that the dimensions  of torque and energy are the same, but we treat them as different quantities, and only measure torque. 
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #638 on: 18/08/2022 18:12:43 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 18/08/2022 12:11:55
Quote from: Bored chemist on 10/08/2022 09:17:53
In principle, what you actually get is an infinitely negative temperature.
Doesn't this sound silly to you?
Well, that depends.
Are you answering a pointless question ,which the questioner has already said they can't think of a use for, or are you trying to achieve something?
If all I'm doing is answering a question from some guy on the internet who can't really give a good reason for his questions then, it's not that silly; there's some hope the guy might learn  from it.
If it's  matter of trying to make practical use of an infinitely negative electronic temperature then, yes, it's a bit daft.

Have you now realised why I was reluctant to waste time on the calculation?
In particular, have you now realise that this was wrong?
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/08/2022 23:46:38
It seems like you are trying so hard to look like you know more things than you actually do.


It's not that I don't know the answer; it's that i know that the answer isn't going to be much use.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #639 on: 18/08/2022 18:14:24 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 18/08/2022 15:04:11
It happens, for perfectly good reasons, that the dimensions  of torque and energy are the same, but we treat them as different quantities, and only measure torque. 
I'm sure I heard some wacky story somewhere of some group trying to measure energy.
I think their problem was they failed to ask a chemist.
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