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  4. what is temperature?
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what is temperature?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #700 on: 18/09/2022 14:08:01 »
In this video, thermal energy is distinguished from other forms of kinetic energy by introducing a term: non-mechanical.
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Offline Deecart

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #701 on: 18/09/2022 19:13:19 »
I dont agree with the explanation at 2mn30
He is doing the comparison of the "temperature" of two systems composed of the same objects.
One has more kinetic energy as the other, so it is hotter (this is what the guy say).
This is wrong.
I think he is doing confusion between temperaure and heat.
Temperature is not a concequence of heat, even if there is a possible link between the two concepts using mass !

He use a specific case (same molecules (same mass) in two systems) to demonstrate a false general conclusion.

Heat and Temperature are totally different things !
First, temperatures cant be added with temperature, but heat can be added with heat.

Here the guy is talking about heat, not about temperature.
To be convinced, just think about "tin air" (few molecules) : It has very low heat, but it can have very high temperature if the speed of the molecules is high.
You could grip it with you hand and dont be burned (no heat...) altought it has very hight temperature.

The best temperature measurement tool is the one who change the less the temperature measured (so when mass of the measurement tool tend to 0).
So here there is no heat involved at all (no "equilibrum" needed unlike the guy say incorrectly).
 
Now, yes the heat is also a mechanical energy, but he say it himself... it is a statistical mechanical energy.





« Last Edit: 18/09/2022 19:29:55 by Deecart »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #702 on: 18/09/2022 20:19:44 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 18/09/2022 14:08:01
In this video, thermal energy is distinguished from other forms of kinetic energy by introducing a term: non-mechanical.
If heat was only about kinetic energy, then hot things would not glow.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #703 on: 19/09/2022 00:30:22 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 18/09/2022 14:08:01
In this video, thermal energy is distinguished from other forms of kinetic energy by introducing a term: non-mechanical.
Pretty much what we discussed on page 2 of this nonsense, talking about gross motion and internal motion.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #704 on: 21/09/2022 11:43:50 »
Quote from: Deecart on 18/09/2022 19:13:19
Here the guy is talking about heat, not about temperature.
Here's another example.
A mixture of ice and water may have the same temperature, but they have different heat content. 
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #705 on: 21/09/2022 11:50:47 »
Quote from: Deecart on 18/09/2022 19:13:19
Now, yes the heat is also a mechanical energy, but he say it himself... it is a statistical mechanical energy.
What's the difference between statistical mechanical energy and non-statistical mechanical energy?
How would it compare to temperature?
Is there a statistical mechanical energy which is not kinetic? What would it be called?
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Offline Origin

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #706 on: 21/09/2022 13:14:49 »
After 35 pages are you any closer to understanding what temperature is?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #707 on: 21/09/2022 14:47:31 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 18/09/2022 20:19:44
If heat was only about kinetic energy, then hot things would not glow.
What kind of energy makes hot things glow?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #708 on: 21/09/2022 14:50:04 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 19/09/2022 00:30:22
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 18/09/2022 14:08:01
In this video, thermal energy is distinguished from other forms of kinetic energy by introducing a term: non-mechanical.
Pretty much what we discussed on page 2 of this nonsense, talking about gross motion and internal motion.
How do you define gross motion and internal motion?
What are the main differences?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #709 on: 21/09/2022 14:56:36 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 08/09/2022 08:38:45
The first stage is where you find something of which the temperature is known, and see which thermometer measures that correctly.
It would be problematic if the thermometers have narrow range and we have nothing with known temperature within the range.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #710 on: 21/09/2022 14:57:58 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 09/09/2022 01:14:14
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/09/2022 04:37:26
If two thermometers show different measurements from the same object at the same time, how to determine which one is more correct?

The one traceable to a national standards laboratory.

True story. I attended the induction of recruits to the UK National Physical Laboratory. The Director said: "How long is a piece of string? In law, it is as long as I say it is. Your job is to tell me what to say."
It would make physical science more like a social construct.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #711 on: 21/09/2022 15:14:37 »
Quote from: Origin on 21/09/2022 13:14:49
After 35 pages are you any closer to understanding what temperature is?
I think so.
But the conversation here shows that there are still some disagreements among participants of this thread. Some videos shown here also indicates that disagreements even exist among science educators.
I hope to find some convincing argumentations to back up those positions in later posts. BTW, I haven't found your meaningful contribution here. I hope it would change next time.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #712 on: 22/09/2022 15:25:52 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/09/2022 14:56:36
Quote from: Bored chemist on 08/09/2022 08:38:45
The first stage is where you find something of which the temperature is known, and see which thermometer measures that correctly.
It would be problematic if the thermometers have narrow range and we have nothing with known temperature within the range.
For example, which temperature measurement is correct?

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/08/2022 03:35:34
Here's my first video on investigation of thermodynamics.
Demonstrating the effect of emissivity on infrared thermal camera measurement.
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Offline Origin

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #713 on: 22/09/2022 17:52:59 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/09/2022 15:14:37
BTW, I haven't found your meaningful contribution here. I hope it would change next time.
The question was answered in the first page so there has not really been all that much meaningful content in these past 35 pages...
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Offline paul cotter

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #714 on: 22/09/2022 18:49:06 »
This could proceed ad infinitum without a hint of progress.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #715 on: 22/09/2022 21:01:51 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/09/2022 14:57:58
It would make physical science more like a social construct.
If you are a philosopher, you probably think so. Argumentative, but pointless.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #716 on: 22/09/2022 21:02:55 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/09/2022 15:25:52
For example, which temperature measurement is correct?
The one traceable to a national standards laboratory, always. That is what defines "correct".
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #717 on: 23/09/2022 15:31:51 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/09/2022 21:02:55
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/09/2022 15:25:52
For example, which temperature measurement is correct?
The one traceable to a national standards laboratory, always. That is what defines "correct".
Which nation?
What if you want to measure temperature higher than the maximum limit of your national standards laboratory?
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #718 on: 23/09/2022 18:44:34 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 23/09/2022 15:31:51
Which nation?
The one you are in, but it hardly matters.
Standards like these are international.
https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=830622
The triple point of  gallium is not dependent on nationality
.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 23/09/2022 15:31:51
What if you want to measure temperature higher than the maximum limit of your national standards laboratory?
Technically, as Alan pointed out, that's  their problem.

The answer is likely to be spectroscopy
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #719 on: 23/09/2022 20:05:01 »
I've measured voltages higher than the national standard, whilst working at a national standards lab!

The trick is to make a device that is modular and inherently linear and extendable, then calibrate the modules and add them together.

It is left as an exercise to the reader to work out how to do this with temperature. Hint: Johnson noise is good to the boiling point of carbon, and a buddy of mine uses spectroscopy to measure the temperature of plasmas with a diffraction grating traceable to common mechanical standards.
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