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  4. what is temperature?
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what is temperature?

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #900 on: 20/08/2024 10:58:34 »
Anyway, apropos setting fire to something with light beam, you are adding energy to the target by irradiating it with electromagnetic radiation. What isn't scattered or reflected either induces a chemical change or just heats the target.

Thermodynamics tells us that  ΔT is proportional to ΔE, so what's the problem?

I spent many happy years measuring ΔT induced by x- and γ-rays absorbed in carbon and water - it's how we define radiation dose.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #901 on: 20/08/2024 15:20:57 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 20/08/2024 10:58:34
Thermodynamics tells us that  ΔT is proportional to ΔE, so what's the problem?
Which law is it?
Isothermic process can change the energy without changing temperature.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #902 on: 20/08/2024 16:17:48 »
You need to combine 0, 1 and 2.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #903 on: 20/08/2024 23:22:59 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 20/08/2024 16:17:48
You need to combine 0, 1 and 2.
How do they explain isothermic process?
Quote from: alancalverd on 20/08/2024 10:58:34
Thermodynamics tells us that  ΔT is proportional to ΔE, so what's the problem?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #904 on: 21/08/2024 08:15:32 »
Isothermal describes the final state of a process. During the active phase, heat must flow from the source (say the gas being compressed) to the sink (the rest of the world) so there must be a temperature gradient, however small.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #905 on: 21/08/2024 09:41:04 »
Quote
Simply, we can say that in an isothermal process
T = constant
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isothermal_process

Example

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #906 on: 21/08/2024 09:43:08 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 20/08/2024 10:58:34
Thermodynamics tells us that  ΔT is proportional to ΔE, so what's the problem?
The problem is it's wrong.
Only some portion of the energy of an object  is manifested as its temperature.
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Offline paul cotter

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #907 on: 21/08/2024 10:51:20 »
"Engineering thermodynamics, work and heat transfer", Rogers&Mayhew. Get this or similar. Alternatively live the rest of your life in total confusion.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #908 on: 21/08/2024 12:18:06 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/08/2024 09:43:08
Only some portion of the energy of an object  is manifested as its temperature.
Note the conventional use of Δ.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #909 on: 21/08/2024 13:04:04 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 21/08/2024 12:18:06
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/08/2024 09:43:08
Only some portion of the energy of an object  is manifested as its temperature.
Note the conventional use of Δ.
You can have ΔT = 0 while ΔE ≠ 0 and vice versa.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #910 on: 21/08/2024 15:13:48 »
Not if E represents the thermal energy of the object.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #911 on: 21/08/2024 20:29:47 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 20/08/2024 10:58:34
Thermodynamics tells us that  ΔT is proportional to ΔE, so what's the problem?
What do you call the constant of proportionality?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #912 on: 22/08/2024 10:55:57 »
(Specific) heat capacity. Assuming no phase change, of course.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #913 on: 23/08/2024 10:51:43 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/08/2024 10:55:57
(Specific) heat capacity. Assuming no phase change, of course.
So... this sort of "constant".

* Cp.JPG (31.88 kB . 536x384 - viewed 375 times)


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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #914 on: 23/08/2024 12:32:30 »
Over the humanly survivable temperature and pressure range, say -40 to + 150F and 14.5 psi, the curve looks flat enough to me.

And IIRC the special air in your room was an ideal gas.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #915 on: 23/08/2024 12:37:53 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 23/08/2024 12:32:30
Over the humanly survivable temperature and pressure range, say -40 to + 150F and 14.5 psi, the curve looks flat enough to me.
Since when was human survivability taken into account in fundamental physics?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #916 on: 23/08/2024 12:55:22 »
BC was talking about heating a room in his house because it was uncomfortably cold.

Fundamental physics my well address intolerable ambients, but BC's graph, and engineering in general, is about answering the question "well enough".   
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #917 on: 01/09/2024 02:47:08 »

I asked ChatGPT again, Why Heat Capacity and Entropy Share the Same Units?

Quote
Heat capacity and entropy share the same units because they are both derived from the fundamental relationship between energy and temperature in thermodynamic processes.

### Units of Heat Capacity
- **Heat Capacity (C)** is defined as the amount of heat required to change the temperature of a substance by one degree. Mathematically, it is expressed as:
 
  \[
  C = \frac{Q}{\Delta T}
  \]

  where \( Q \) is the heat added, and \( \Delta T \) is the temperature change.

  Since \( Q \) is measured in joules (J) and \( \Delta T \) in kelvins (K), the unit of heat capacity is joules per kelvin (J/K).

### Units of Entropy
- **Entropy (S)** is a measure of the disorder or randomness of a system. In thermodynamics, it is related to the amount of heat exchanged in a reversible process at a constant temperature. The change in entropy is given by:

  \[
  \Delta S = \frac{Q_{\text{rev}}}{T}
  \]

  where \( Q_{\text{rev}} \) is the reversible heat exchange, and \( T \) is the absolute temperature.

  Here, \( Q_{\text{rev}} \) is in joules (J), and \( T \) is in kelvins (K), making the unit of entropy also joules per kelvin (J/K).

### Why They Share the Same Units
Both heat capacity and entropy involve the relationship between energy (heat) and temperature. The similarity in units arises because both quantities describe how energy (measured in joules) is distributed with respect to temperature (measured in kelvins):

1. **Heat Capacity** measures how much energy is needed to change the temperature of a substance, indicating the energy absorption efficiency.
2. **Entropy** measures how energy is distributed at a specific temperature, representing the disorder or randomness of the system.

Although they describe different physical concepts?heat capacity deals with energy absorption, while entropy deals with energy distribution?they both fundamentally relate energy to temperature, leading to the same units (J/K).
One obvious difference is the position of symbol Delta.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #918 on: 01/09/2024 10:38:36 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 23/08/2024 12:55:22
BC was talking about heating a room in his house because it was uncomfortably cold.
I was talking about a theoretical case with the numbers chosen to make the maths easy (perhaps deceptively so).
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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #919 on: 01/09/2024 10:43:21 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 23/08/2024 12:32:30
Over the humanly survivable temperature and pressure range, say -40 to + 150F and 14.5 psi, the curve looks flat enough to me.

And IIRC the special air in your room was an ideal gas.
OK. That's the circumstances I specified in my post about heating a room.

And here's your post
Quote from: alancalverd on 20/08/2024 10:58:34
Anyway, apropos setting fire to something with light beam, you are adding energy to the target by irradiating it with electromagnetic radiation. What isn't scattered or reflected either induces a chemical change or just heats the target.

Thermodynamics tells us that  ΔT is proportional to ΔE, so what's the problem?

I spent many happy years measuring ΔT induced by x- and γ-rays absorbed in carbon and water - it's how we define radiation dose.

Where you specify setting fire to things so we know that the temperature is much higher and there's a chemical reaction going on.

So, is " ΔT is proportional to ΔE" in that situation?
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