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  4. what is temperature?
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what is temperature?

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1200 on: 18/12/2024 09:40:31 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/12/2024 21:56:04
Humans make up nonsense everyday.
Speak for yourself.

Oh, I see you did.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1201 on: 20/12/2024 03:37:34 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 18/12/2024 09:16:05
By definition, nonsense does not represent reality.

Quote from: Bored chemist on 18/12/2024 09:40:31
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/12/2024 21:56:04
Humans make up nonsense everyday.
Speak for yourself.

Oh, I see you did.

Geoffrey Hinton said that remembering things is basically the same process as hallucinating, with the difference only in the multiple constraints it has to fulfill.
In many cases, witnesses remember some details of an event with deviations from what really happened. The mistakes are often honest ones, like when you confused between heat capacity and specific heat capacity.

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 17/12/2024 21:56:04
What matters is whether or not the statements accurately represent objective reality.
« Last Edit: 20/12/2024 03:47:07 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1202 on: 20/12/2024 04:04:37 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/12/2024 04:37:15
Every Weird Temperature Scale Explained
Quote

Timestamps

0:00 Celsius
2:14 Fahrenheit
4:42 Kelvin
8:00 Lightning Round (Rankinet, R?mer, Delisle, Newton, Reaumur, Wedgwood)

? DISCLAIMER ?

This video is intended for entertainment and educational purposes only. It should not be your sole source of information. Some details may be oversimplified or inaccurate. My goal is to spark your curiosity and encourage you to conduct your own research on these topics.
Primitive concept of temperature was to quantify a human sensory input, namely hotness. Even Newton still used this concept in his temperature scale. In this case, the concept is more closely related to the rate of heat flow between the measured object and human's thermoreceptors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoreceptor

It was like brightness to quantify visual inputs or loudness to quantify auditory inputs.

More modern concepts for temperature are meant to overcome the limitations of the primitive concept described above, namely variations in humans' thermoreceptors among different individuals, also the limitations in their range of measurement. Instead of heat flow between the measured object and thermoreceptors, new concepts of temperature try to describe and predict the naturally occurring heat flow between two objects with different temperature, when they are in thermal contact.

When heat was discovered as a form of kinetic energy, it becomes necessary to define the distinctions between thermal and non-thermal kinetic energy, also thermal and non-thermal energy transfer.
« Last Edit: 20/12/2024 04:18:41 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1203 on: 20/12/2024 08:57:02 »
I Grew Plants Faster Using Plasma
Quote
Emerging science indicates plants can benefit from cold plasma treatment, so I tested this with controlled conditions, using Grass and Radish seeds. Can plasma change our agriculture?
At 0:20 he distinguishes between 2 types of plasma: thermal and non-thermal.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1204 on: 20/12/2024 10:11:38 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 20/12/2024 04:04:37
Primitive concept of temperature was to quantify a human sensory input, namely hotness.
And for what it's worth, Fahrenheit was brilliant experimentalist who used the human body (his wife) to define his temperature scale. He defined 100 degrees as body temperature but by sheer bad luck Frau F happened to be sick at the time,  so "normal" body temperature is actually in the region 97.5 to 98.5. 

Realising that the freezing of water depended on its purity, he sensibly set zero to be the lowest temperature achievable with an ice/salt mixture, hence the slightly odd 32F becoming an important value in meteorology and hydrology.

Despite the weird numbers, Fahrenheit formed the basis for steam engineering which was exported over the entire planet in the 19th and 20th centuries.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1205 on: 21/12/2024 07:35:01 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 20/12/2024 04:04:37
More modern concepts for temperature are meant to overcome the limitations of the primitive concept described above, namely variations in humans' thermoreceptors among different individuals, also the limitations in their range of measurement. Instead of heat flow between the measured object and thermoreceptors, new concepts of temperature try to describe and predict the naturally occurring heat flow between two objects with different temperature, when they are in thermal contact.
It turns out that beside the temperature difference, heat flow also depends on heat conductance.
Similar cases are found in the flowrate of fluid materials which depends on pressure and fluid conductance. Likewise, electric current depends on electric potential and electrical conductance.

As long as the conductance between two nodes is not zero, there will be heat flow between them when there's a difference in temperature.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1206 on: 21/12/2024 23:59:15 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/12/2024 07:35:01
heat flow also depends on heat conductance.
Let's be pedantic. Heat flow (i.e. the direction of mean energy transfer) depends on temperature difference. The rate of heat flow by conduction depends  also on the thermal diffusivity of the materials and the boundary conductance. 
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1207 on: 22/12/2024 01:59:20 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 21/12/2024 23:59:15
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/12/2024 07:35:01
heat flow also depends on heat conductance.
Let's be pedantic. Heat flow (i.e. the direction of mean energy transfer) depends on temperature difference. The rate of heat flow by conduction depends  also on the thermal diffusivity of the materials and the boundary conductance. 
Since we are talking about fundamental definition of temperature, I try to simplify things to the absolute minimum. I referred to heat transfer between two objects. the system is modelled as 2 vertices and 1 edge connecting them.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1208 on: 22/12/2024 09:43:12 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/12/2024 01:59:20
I try to simplify things
Which is why you need to distinguish between direction and rate.

Then for any finite object you need to consider diffusivity. This is where a lot of geothermal energy proposals fall down: you may have found a prospective hotspot, but once you start extracting energy from it your power is limited by the rate at which it is replenished by diffusion from the adjacent rocks - similar to the internal impedance of a battery.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1209 on: 22/12/2024 09:52:15 »
Newton?s Cradle Doesn?t Work the Way You Think
Quote
Here are some great papers on what I talk about in this video:
https://www.karlsruher-physikkurs.de/download/ball-chain_part1.pdf
https://www.karlsruher-physikkurs.de/download/ball-chain_part2.pdf
I bought a Newton's cradle meant to use it in videos investigating its behaviors. But since this videos has come out first, I think I won't bother anymore. It saved me time and efforts.

When the plastic tape is used, some kinetic energy is converted to other forms faster, including heat.
« Last Edit: 22/12/2024 12:21:15 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1210 on: 22/12/2024 09:55:14 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/12/2024 09:43:12
Which is why you need to distinguish between direction and rate.
The direction of heat transfer between two nodes can be unambiguously represented by positive or negative sign of the number for the transfer rate.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1211 on: 22/12/2024 12:38:14 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 14/12/2024 22:27:16
I asked them with follow up question.
The first object is a stationary warm neodymium magnet, while the second object is a spinning but cooler neodymium magnet. How would they exchange their kinetic energy?
The graph model for this case may not be the simplest one. We can add one more edge between two nodes, representing two modes/channels of energy transfer.
The first is EM radiation of warm objects, which is mainly in infrared spectrum. The direction of the net energy transfer in this channel is from warm magnet to the cooler one.
The other one is electromagnetic induction, which causes Eddy current, which generate heat in both magnets, but at the cost of reduction in angular velocity of the spinning magnet. The direction of the net energy transfer in this channel is from spinning magnet to the stationary one.

By splitting the energy transfer into multiple channels, we can explain the mechanism of heat transfer in various phenomena, like induction heating, radio and microwave heating, infrared and visible light heating, laser heating, also sound/acoustic heating.

Can Loud Sounds Actually Cook Things? The Sound to Heat Experiment
Quote
In this experiment I test out if you can heat things up with sound waves! I start off with low frequency 20 Hz  and then turn up the frequency higher and higher to try to cook an egg just from sound! I talk about sound waves and how frequency is related to the energy of the wave.

WARNING:
If you use the information from this video for your own projects then you assume complete responsibility for the results.


IMO, the concept of temperature in thermodynamics was meant to combine all of those different modes of kinetic energy transfer into a single quantity.
« Last Edit: 22/12/2024 12:54:34 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1212 on: 22/12/2024 18:54:22 »
There is a bizarre video of someone cooking a chicken by slapping it.

James Joule published On the Mechanical Equivalent of Heat in 1845, including the conversion coefficient he measured to within 1% of the current value.
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Offline paul cotter

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1213 on: 22/12/2024 21:17:12 »
Possible in principle but I reckon it would disintegrate before adequate cooking is achieved. Hot chicken puree.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1214 on: 22/12/2024 22:25:47 »
The inverse principle is important in the manufacture of sausages. If you are mincing a ton of pork in an industrial blender, you need to add ice to prevent it cooking. Fortunately the recipe for British sausages (no longer available in the EU or Northern Ireland, alas)  includes enough rusk to absorb the water.
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Offline Eternal Student

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1215 on: 22/12/2024 22:46:05 »
Hi.
Quote from: paul cotter on 22/12/2024 21:17:12
I reckon it would disintegrate before adequate cooking

   Apparently you adjust the slap depth, so that the chicken isn't turned to pulp and rely on having a very high rate of slapping.   If it's the video I think it is, they built a slapping machine that managed about 10 slaps per second.
    Of course, there's a limited market for chicken slapping but it it may have more potential as a steak slapping machine because then your steak should come out both cooked and very tender.

Quote from: alancalverd on 22/12/2024 22:25:47
The inverse principle is important in the manufacture of sausages.
    Sausages need a bigger slap.  They're building a special machine to deliver the bangers.

Best Wishes.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1216 on: 24/12/2024 01:29:42 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/12/2024 12:38:14
IMO, the concept of temperature in thermodynamics was meant to combine all of those different modes of kinetic energy transfer into a single quantity.
In practice, the multiple pathways of kinetic energy transfer can cause difference in  temperature measurement by different types of thermometer. For example, a mercury thermometer and alcohol thermometer can show different values when measuring temperature of the air around a spinning magnet.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1217 on: 24/12/2024 23:13:46 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/12/2024 01:29:42
For example, a mercury thermometer and alcohol thermometer can show different values when measuring temperature of the air around a spinning magnet.
The  mercury thermometer will not be showing the temperature of the air, will it?
Most bits of measuring equipment can be misused.
So what?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1218 on: 25/12/2024 11:34:26 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 24/12/2024 23:13:46
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/12/2024 01:29:42
For example, a mercury thermometer and alcohol thermometer can show different values when measuring temperature of the air around a spinning magnet.
The  mercury thermometer will not be showing the temperature of the air, will it?
Most bits of measuring equipment can be misused.
So what?
When different types of thermometer show different values when measuring the temperature of the same object at the same time, we need to determine which one is the most accurate.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: what is temperature?
« Reply #1219 on: 25/12/2024 12:27:26 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/12/2024 01:29:42
For example, a mercury thermometer and alcohol thermometer can show different values when measuring temperature of the air around a spinning magnet.
No. They both show the temperature of the contents of the thermometer bulb. One is heated entirely by conduction from the air, one has an additional dynamo component.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/12/2024 11:34:26
we need to determine which one is the most accurate.
which is why experimental physics is nontrivial - particularly when dealing with heat. If you get a result within 10% of the textbook answer in a school laboratory, you are doing pretty well, and I'd hope most undergraduates can get within 1%, but ?0.05% confidence demands some serious mathematics and very good engineering.
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