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  4. Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
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Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #280 on: 26/11/2023 05:32:48 »
Intensity of a spherical light source is quartered when the distance is doubled. This and many other experiments show that light always propagate like a continuous wave, until it's detected. Which means it interact with some material objects non-linearly. That's what's called wave function collapse, IMO.
This non-linearity reduces information contained in the known system, just like saturation in the electronic components.
« Last Edit: 26/11/2023 05:44:47 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #281 on: 13/02/2024 13:11:28 »
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Confining the light causes it to have more colours. This is explained well in an excellent video by Ben Miles. But at first glance, the experiment seems to be a totally different one than what I explained in the video- so I'll explain what the connection is. In particular, it's only the "single slit" version of the experiment that's relevant for us. I said that the researchers confined a laser to a small space. The technique they used to do this was to have two lasers- one which is the source, and the other which is used to turn on and off a "switch" of sorts. What the switch does is it makes the material in the experiment go from transparent to reflective very quickly, then back. The source laser is shining continuously at the material.

But the idea is that for the short while that the material is reflective a little section of the laser beam is reflected. That's the "confined" light- they took a laser beam that's always on and constant and isolated a small section, confining the whereabouts of the light. They then measured the colours of that light and find it's spread out. (This result is at the 8 minute mark)
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #282 on: 13/02/2024 22:15:06 »
Clearly written by someone with no understanding of physics.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #283 on: 14/02/2024 01:45:44 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 13/02/2024 22:15:06
Clearly written by someone with no understanding of physics.
Perhaps you just understand it differently than she does. At least her PhD advisors and reviewers agreed that she understand some of it.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #284 on: 14/02/2024 02:35:51 »
Many people have realized that wave propagation and signal processing are easier to analyze in frequency domain, and use Fourier transformation to convert the equation from time domain. But fewer realized that Fourier transformation is just a special case where there's no energy transformation to different forms. The more general transformation to convert from time domain to frequency domain is Laplace transformation. It should be used to analyze light generation and absorption.
« Last Edit: 14/02/2024 13:31:15 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #285 on: 14/02/2024 14:09:09 »
Maxwell produced his equations before knowing that electric charge is quantized. It was only established after Millikan's oil drop experiment showing the charge of an electron. It's no wonder if the equations don't work well enough for the situations where the effects of that quantization are  no longer negligible.
« Last Edit: 14/02/2024 21:53:36 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #286 on: 14/02/2024 22:08:43 »
Apropos reply#284, you have expanded my point in #282. There is a lot of energy transfer going on inside the switching crystal, so it's hardly  surprising that what comes out isn't the same as what goes in. If the PhD project was about eliciting the mechanisms, it would have been interesting and valuable, If it was just a phenomenological display of spectral broadening, it should have been covered in the undergraduate syllabus.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #287 on: 16/02/2024 21:47:59 »
Let's analyze the most simple case, and see if our models can make sense of it. An electron is made to oscillate at frequency of 1 Hz. The amplitude is 1 meter. How many photons is it radiating every second in average?
What if the amplitude is then reduced to 1 mm?
Is there a minimum amplitude?
Is there a maximum amplitude?
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #288 on: 22/02/2024 06:06:21 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/02/2024 21:47:59
Let's analyze the most simple case, and see if our models can make sense of it. An electron is made to oscillate at frequency of 1 Hz. The amplitude is 1 meter. How many photons is it radiating every second in average?
What if the amplitude is then reduced to 1 mm?
Is there a minimum amplitude?
Is there a maximum amplitude?
IMO, the last question would be constrained by speed of light. But the answer to the other questions are less obvious.
It seems like the currently most widely accepted model isn't adequate to give us the satisfactory answers.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #289 on: 22/02/2024 06:10:59 »
Where Does Light Come From? (Electrodynamics)
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It's often said that light is an electromagnetic wave, a disturbance in electric and magnetic fields, but what does that mean? How are they made? Let's take a deeper look at electrodynamics and this history behind the discovery to see if we can find an answer.

It shows the timeline for our understanding of light.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #290 on: 22/02/2024 22:21:50 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/02/2024 21:47:59
Is there a maximum amplitude?
Obviously.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #291 on: 23/02/2024 07:20:39 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 22/02/2024 22:21:50
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/02/2024 21:47:59
Is there a maximum amplitude?
Obviously.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 22/02/2024 06:06:21
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 16/02/2024 21:47:59
Let's analyze the most simple case, and see if our models can make sense of it. An electron is made to oscillate at frequency of 1 Hz. The amplitude is 1 meter. How many photons is it radiating every second in average?
What if the amplitude is then reduced to 1 mm?
Is there a minimum amplitude?
Is there a maximum amplitude?
IMO, the last question would be constrained by speed of light. But the answer to the other questions are less obvious.
It seems like the currently most widely accepted model isn't adequate to give us the satisfactory answers.
Since the electron can't move faster than c, then the maximum distance it can travel in 1 second is around 300 million meter, thus the maximum amplitude is 75 million meter.

Can you help to answer the other questions?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #292 on: 23/02/2024 08:16:00 »
You may be about to confuse Planck's "particle in a box" model with a Maxwellian "resonant aerial" model.  Beware!
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #293 on: 24/02/2024 15:14:05 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 23/02/2024 08:16:00
You may be about to confuse Planck's "particle in a box" model with a Maxwellian "resonant aerial" model.  Beware!
I don't assume those models. My assumptions are as follow:
Electric charge is quantized.
An electron is the quantum of negatively charged particle.
It can be isolated.
It can be made to move in certain ways.

Which model do you think is best to describe my example?
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #294 on: 24/02/2024 15:25:18 »
If two distinct models are required to explain two distinct but related cases, then both models must contain false assumptions which become significant in one of the case.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #295 on: 24/02/2024 23:44:13 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 24/02/2024 15:14:05
Which model do you think is best to describe my example?
Since your example is of an oscillating current at 1 Hz, Maxwell will do the job very well. It is indeed used by those who design VLF antennae for undersea communication.

The cases are distinct and unrelated.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #296 on: 25/02/2024 04:24:37 »
This video contains historical context for Planck's law, which is mostly dismissed in textbooks.
Quote
Story of how Planck discovered the blackbody radiation formula and why he introduced energy quantization as a math trick

Errata:
08:10​ instead of Pringscheim should be Pringsheim, thanks to @petermarksteiner7754​ for notifying this
14:40​ after the integration there is an extra minus sign that should not be there, thanks @escandestone6001​ for notifying this
20:22​ second equation should be ε/(kT)=log(1+ε/U), thanks to @Galileosays​ for notifying this
23:52​ "gasses" should be "gases," thanks to @Robert-skibelo​ for notifying this
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #297 on: 25/02/2024 04:30:59 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 24/02/2024 23:44:13
The cases are distinct and unrelated.
Just multiply the frequency by 1 quadrillion times, and you get ultraviolet light. That's a relationship, no matter how hard you try to deny it.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #298 on: 26/02/2024 15:14:48 »
Ultraviolet maybe, but continuous emission at any frequency you choose.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #299 on: 26/02/2024 15:16:13 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 25/02/2024 04:24:37
which is mostly dismissed in textbooks.

Not in mine! But that was 60 years ago. Maybe they don't teach physics anymore.
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