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  4. Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
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Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #360 on: 14/07/2024 03:26:37 »
Kepler's Laws [Part 2]
Some interesting comments.
Quote
Kepler's discovery of elliptical orbits has long been a favorite story and demonstrative example:  Copernicus is now hailed as a visionary who's theory was rejected out of dogmatic belief in the planets orbiting Earth.  However his proposal was rejected on the basis that it is a poorer match of the data than the current models.  It wasn't until Kepler found his elliptical orbits that the heliocentric model produced better results.  This is close to an error commonly seen in science (mostly by amateur scientists), where people propose an overly simple model that just doesn't match the data, and when they are rejected on this basis they rail against science for not seeing their vision.  It's an important lesson in pride, and knowing that while simplicity is beautiful and should be sought, it must match the data and have predictive power to be an explanation.
I knew this story from a history of science class, but I never knew the details of the math until your videos.  Thank you very much.

This is a terrific series. Every previous telling of Kepler's story I've heard (and I've heard/read a lot!) is basically "He had this nested-platonic-solids idea which was wrong and amusing, then eventually he got all of Tycho's data and messed around and finally hit on ellipses." I'd never heard of his "extremely accurate but actually wrong" model, or what propelled him on to the correct one.

This video demonstrates what a genius Kepler was.
I like the phrase: ?? what it really looks like to do modern science. In stead of having phylosofical debates about how nature should work, they turned to methodical observation and messy experimentation.?
That reminded me of the standard model of particles, and how theories like string theory - no observations, no experiments, just mathematical debates -paralyze science for decades.
« Last Edit: 14/07/2024 03:31:44 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #361 on: 03/08/2024 11:19:23 »
How Hert'z Mistake Led Einstein to Quantum Physics!
Quote
Let's explore how a tiny lab accident in 1887 (by Heinrich Hertz) unlocked the quantum revolution. This is a story of how Philipp Lenard, Max Planck, and Robert Millikan helped Einstein discover the quantum nature of light.

Chapters:
00:00 The tiny lab accident
02:30 The brilliant experiment with electrons
05:58 The shocking discovery
07:27 Lenard's trigger hypothesis
09:03 Trigger hypothesis is in trouble
10:13 A revolutionary tool
11:40 Max Planck's act of despair (using water analogy)
16:14 Einstein's epiphany
21:13 Challenges to Einstein's revolutionary idea
23:59 The last straw or was it?
29:58 The writing on the wall
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #362 on: 04/08/2024 18:02:36 »
Millikan's notebooks are, frankly, less than candid. Fortunately his underlying belief in the quantised nature of charge turns out to be true, but his brilliant experimental "proof" would not have stood up in a court!
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #363 on: 05/08/2024 06:54:44 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 04/08/2024 18:02:36
Millikan's notebooks are, frankly, less than candid. Fortunately his underlying belief in the quantised nature of charge turns out to be true, but his brilliant experimental "proof" would not have stood up in a court!
What convinced you that the quantised nature of charge turns out to be true?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #364 on: 05/08/2024 23:07:59 »
Because it works, and nobody has found a particle with a fractional charge.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #365 on: 06/08/2024 04:47:55 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 05/08/2024 23:07:59
Because it works, and nobody has found a particle with a fractional charge.
Which experimental proof that you think will stand up in court, which is better than his experimental proof?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #366 on: 06/08/2024 12:34:50 »
You could do Millikan's oil-drop experiment and record the results correctly. I've watched undergraduates do it. 
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #367 on: 06/08/2024 13:29:46 »
Afaik, he removed outliers which he believed to be flukes. Some of them were related to stormy weather. That's a normal practice to  separate noise from signals.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #368 on: 06/08/2024 21:53:26 »
Fair enough if you have a good idea of what the signal should look like, or what causes the deviations, but Millikan rather assumed quantisation of charge and just ignored any results that didn't fit the hypothesis. That's common practice in economics, politics, religion, and every other form of quackery, but it's frowned upon in physics.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #369 on: 07/08/2024 14:24:44 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 06/08/2024 21:53:26
Fair enough if you have a good idea of what the signal should look like, or what causes the deviations, but Millikan rather assumed quantisation of charge and just ignored any results that didn't fit the hypothesis. That's common practice in economics, politics, religion, and every other form of quackery, but it's frowned upon in physics.
Which results didn't fit the hypothesis?
Did he find a case where the electric charge wasn't quantized?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #370 on: 07/08/2024 14:33:22 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/08/2024 11:19:23
How Hert'z Mistake Led Einstein to Quantum Physics!
Quote
Let's explore how a tiny lab accident in 1887 (by Heinrich Hertz) unlocked the quantum revolution. This is a story of how Philipp Lenard, Max Planck, and Robert Millikan helped Einstein discover the quantum nature of light.

Chapters:
00:00 The tiny lab accident
02:30 The brilliant experiment with electrons
05:58 The shocking discovery
07:27 Lenard's trigger hypothesis
09:03 Trigger hypothesis is in trouble
10:13 A revolutionary tool
11:40 Max Planck's act of despair (using water analogy)
16:14 Einstein's epiphany
21:13 Challenges to Einstein's revolutionary idea
23:59 The last straw or was it?
29:58 The writing on the wall
At 27:50 he mentioned about a constant h/e. Planck initially thought that h was just a proportionality constant to fit the curve. He didn't know that electric charge was quantized until Millikan measured the charge of an electron.
« Last Edit: 07/08/2024 14:45:02 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #371 on: 07/08/2024 16:23:30 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 07/08/2024 14:24:44
Did he find a case where the electric charge wasn't quantized?
No, he recorded measurements that were not consistent with quantisation, but did not report them.
Although the experiment was arguably a stroke of genius, his performance really wasn't. Just like me trying to play a Bach sonata - but nobody would base an entire theory of baroque music on my fumbled fingering of it! 
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #372 on: 08/08/2024 12:03:16 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 07/08/2024 16:23:30
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 07/08/2024 14:24:44
Did he find a case where the electric charge wasn't quantized?
No, he recorded measurements that were not consistent with quantisation, but did not report them.
Although the experiment was arguably a stroke of genius, his performance really wasn't. Just like me trying to play a Bach sonata - but nobody would base an entire theory of baroque music on my fumbled fingering of it! 
How do you know about them if they were not reported?
What caused the inconsistency with quantization?
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #373 on: 08/08/2024 22:37:28 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/08/2024 12:03:16
How do you know about them if they were not reported?
By comparing his laboratory notebooks with his published papers.
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 08/08/2024 12:03:16
What caused the inconsistency with quantization?
Random experimental errors.

Although an acknowledged genius, Millikan was known as a clumsy experimentalist.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #374 on: 13/08/2024 15:17:26 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/08/2024 22:37:28
By comparing his laboratory notebooks with his published papers.
So, his laboratory notebooks were eventually published.
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/08/2024 22:37:28
Random experimental errors.

Perhaps he didn't published those errors because he already knew that they were random.
« Last Edit: 14/08/2024 06:19:15 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #375 on: 13/08/2024 18:13:33 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 13/08/2024 15:17:26
So, his laboratory notebooks were eventually published.
Some difference between a peer-reviewed publication, where you have managed to convince experts that your findings are worth broadcasting to the general public, and a hoard of personal notebooks in a university archive.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #376 on: 18/08/2024 16:03:20 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 21/03/2024 04:20:41
Quote from: Origin on 20/03/2024 13:54:29
That frequency is the rate at which the magnetic and electric field of the photon oscillate from a maximum to a minimum and back to a maximum.
FYI, circularly polarized light has a constant amplitude of electric field when propagating as a plane wave. Only the orientation rotates.
Is this kind of light also quantized? How can one quanta be distinguished from the next?
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #377 on: 18/08/2024 18:58:35 »
All light appears to be quantised as we don't have a means of generating continuous em waves at such high frequencies.

We can discriminate quanta by time of arrival if the intensity is low enough.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #378 on: 18/08/2024 21:44:41 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/08/2024 16:49:19
Really? Wave propagation has nothing to do with QM - it's purely continuum mathematics.
Is wave propagation not quantized?
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #379 on: 18/08/2024 21:48:31 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 18/08/2024 18:58:35
All light appears to be quantised as we don't have a means of generating continuous em waves at such high frequencies.

We can discriminate quanta by time of arrival if the intensity is low enough.
Is radio wave also quantized?
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