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  4. Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
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Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #380 on: 19/08/2024 07:39:59 »
I found an answer in quora on quantization of radiation.
Quote
Max Planck created quantum mechanics out of nowhere in 1900-1901 with his disclosure of the Planck quantum of action h, which underlies every expression in quantum mechanics, starting with Planck?s continuous, quantized, localized light-matter energy exchange quanta E=hf: the sole means by which light interacts with anything; which build continuously, not instantaneously, at every light-matter interface at every radiation frequency f, introduced in the same Planck 1900-1901 papers. Planck was considering E.M. radiation in detailed energetic equilibrium at each radiation frequency f with surrounding matter at uniform temperature T. As energetic equilibrium approaches, the continuous light-matter absorption/emission rates come into balance at each radiation frequency f, so the time to build a Planck quantum E=hf becomes infinite at each radiation frequency f. That?s the equilibrium condition under which Planck?s famous equilibrium blackbody radiation spectrum becomes precise. Spectroscopic analysis of real atomic emission /absorption line spectra shows each emission /absorption spanning many millions of periods of oscillation at each extremely narrow line frequency, taking typically around 10^-8 seconds, which may seem instantaneous to us but represents a vast amount of time of atomic electron emission /absorption.
Starting with Einstein in 1903-1905, many physicists misunderstood Planck?s 1900-1901 papers and thought that the Planck quantized energy exchanges, which actually become infinitely prolonged as system equilibrium approaches, were instantaneous! This led them to jump to the conclusion that streams of tiny undetectable particles must be carrying the Planck quantized energy exchanges E=hf from place to place, although it?s perfectly clear in Planck?s 1900-1901 presentation that the quantized energy exchanges occur at and only at light-matter interfaces. Over 100 years later, physics still hasn?t dug itself out of that deep hole of misapprehension. Everybody uses ?photons? as shorthand for electromagnetic radiation without thinking about what they?re saying.
People latched on to Lewis?s 1926 term ?photon? for the tiny amount of radiation emitted during single atomic electron emission event as evidence for the existence of a wave-particle paradox. The wavelength of the emitted radiation is vastly greater than atomic dimensions, so individual atomic emissions can?t be emitted as a beam: beams are emitted by sources vastly wider than the wavelength being emitted, comprising billions or more radiating atoms. Depending on the geometry of the initial and final electron state, the individual emissions comprise mostly dipole and quadrupole radiation, with an undetectably small amount being emitted in any particular direction. The light surrounding us comprises the cumulative effect of many billions of individual emissions of E.M radiation, not streams of tiny undetectable particles as most people continue to believe. Wave-particle paradoxes disappear when we stop misidentifying waves of electromagnetic radiation with barrages of tiny undetectable particles being called photons.
In more detail, if you?re interested:

Einstein?s 1905 description of the photoelectric effect: the case that the ?matter? in Planck?s 1900 E=hf light-matter energy exchanges is a bound electron, fails only in that Einstein thought the Planck quanta E=hf arrived as particles whereas in fact, as Planck explained in 1900-1901, electromagnetic radiation satisfying Maxwell?s famous 1865 electromagnetic field equations builds Planck energy exchange quanta E=hf continuously at every light-matter interface at every radiation frequency f: rapidly when the incoming radiation intensity and target absorption coefficient are high; slowly when they?re low. Since 1905, virtually every experiment involving Planck?s continuous, quantized, localized light-matter energy exchanges E=hf; the sole mechanism by which light interacts with anything, is misinterpreted in exactly the same way, making photons seem real. Planck and many others explained this spreading error many times; but everybody loved the idea of photons and of a wave/particle paradox, so we?re still plagued by this misapprehension to this day!
With one arguable exception, all fundamental physics, including Maxwell?s 1865 E.M. field equations, Planck?s 1900 light-matter energy exchanges, and the equations of quantum mechanics, are time symmetric, so the above description is easily modified with time reversed to account for E.M. emission events. They?re all continuous, not instantaneous as Einstein, Bohr, and Heisenberg somehow convinced themselves. Nothing happens in zero time.
In case you want to ask him directly, here's the link to his profile.

Profile on @Quora for Bert Willke, Ph.D. Physics, Massachusetts Institute of Technology (1963) https://www.quora.com/profile/Bert-Willke?ch=3&oid=321414779&share=c737365a&srid=uvWW4&target_type=user
« Last Edit: 19/08/2024 07:42:53 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #381 on: 19/08/2024 13:53:25 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/08/2024 07:39:59
everybody loved the idea of photons and of a wave/particle paradox, so we?re still plagued by this misapprehension to this day!
I'll certainly subscribe to that, but
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/08/2024 07:39:59
indetectable particles being called photons.
doesn't quite gel with what we see in e.g. x-ray diffraction experiments where we can count individual events each with a defined energy. 
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #382 on: 19/08/2024 13:58:48 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 18/08/2024 21:48:31
Is radio wave also quantized?
On consideration, I think not. A quantum is a specific amount of energy (E = hf) whereas we can deliver as much energy as we choose by continuously exciting a radio antenna at any particular frequency.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #383 on: 19/08/2024 14:13:34 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 19/08/2024 13:53:25
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/08/2024 07:39:59
everybody loved the idea of photons and of a wave/particle paradox, so we?re still plagued by this misapprehension to this day!
I'll certainly subscribe to that, but
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/08/2024 07:39:59
indetectable particles being called photons.
doesn't quite gel with what we see in e.g. x-ray diffraction experiments where we can count individual events each with a defined energy. 

The individual events can be assigned to activities of electrons instead of photons.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #384 on: 19/08/2024 14:20:05 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 19/08/2024 13:58:48
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 18/08/2024 21:48:31
Is radio wave also quantized?
On consideration, I think not. A quantum is a specific amount of energy (E = hf) whereas we can deliver as much energy as we choose by continuously exciting a radio antenna at any particular frequency.
What's the minimum frequency that still exhibit quantization?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #385 on: 19/08/2024 14:58:46 »
There isn't one. It just happens that most sources of infrared and more energetic radiations are quantised.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #386 on: 19/08/2024 15:00:00 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/08/2024 14:13:34
The individual events can be assigned to activities of electrons instead of photons.
No. Electrons are charged, and don't travel far though air or glass. I think we know the difference.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #387 on: 19/08/2024 16:22:48 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 19/08/2024 15:00:00
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/08/2024 14:13:34
The individual events can be assigned to activities of electrons instead of photons.
No. Electrons are charged, and don't travel far though air or glass. I think we know the difference.
Photoelectric detections are mostly based on activities of electrons.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #388 on: 19/08/2024 18:30:34 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/08/2024 16:22:48
Photoelectric detections are mostly based on activities of electrons.
What do you think "photo" means?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #389 on: 20/08/2024 01:04:13 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 19/08/2024 18:30:34
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 19/08/2024 16:22:48
Photoelectric detections are mostly based on activities of electrons.
What do you think "photo" means?
Light.
What do you think "electric" means?
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #390 on: 20/08/2024 11:03:44 »
Photo-electric means the process by which light stimulates the release of electrons.

A bit like "tele-vision" - a compound of distance and image.   
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #391 on: 20/08/2024 16:32:52 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 20/08/2024 11:03:44
Photo-electric means the process by which light stimulates the release of electrons.

A bit like "tele-vision" - a compound of distance and image.   
What we know so far is that electrons have quantized charge and mass. Other charged particles are also quantized.
« Last Edit: 20/08/2024 17:19:16 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #392 on: 20/08/2024 19:26:07 »
So what? The photon has no charge.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #393 on: 21/08/2024 06:13:27 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 20/08/2024 19:26:07
So what? The photon has no charge.
It also has no mass. Which makes it look more like a virtual particle, like phonon.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #394 on: 21/08/2024 08:12:08 »
There's nothing virtual about light. You can see it - right now! Nor is there anything virtual about radio waves.

Wikipedia:
Quote
A phonon is the quantum mechanical description of an elementary vibrational motion
note the word "description". Likewise photon/wave - these are descriptions or models of a phenomenon.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #395 on: 21/08/2024 09:08:54 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 21/08/2024 08:12:08
There's nothing virtual about light. You can see it - right now! Nor is there anything virtual about radio waves.

Wikipedia:
Quote
A phonon is the quantum mechanical description of an elementary vibrational motion
note the word "description". Likewise photon/wave - these are descriptions or models of a phenomenon.
Phonon is described as a quasiparticle.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasiparticle
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #396 on: 21/08/2024 11:21:43 »
Phonon is a quasi area of spinning magnoflux which is massless but has a volume.  Also described as a magnon but please note that to have energy it must be attracted forward by a voltage or a Cosine reduction will appear.
Transmit antennae give some voltage direction to the spinning magnoflux at the signal  frequency.

See   https://magnoflux3d.wordpress.com/
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #397 on: 21/08/2024 12:16:21 »
Oh no it isn't. By all means invent your own language, but don't misuse ours.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #398 on: 22/08/2024 10:46:00 »
Alan,
Photons are massless but can carry energy across space so no formula that contains kg in it can be correct.
But electric formulas can and do apply to massless energy here on planet earth and in universal space
 Light is electro-magnetic and occupies a volume of space but must have 3D to carry real energy

Do you or other forum writers agree with the above, if not please sight an experiment as proof of concept.
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Re: Where does quantization of energy of electromagnetic radiation come from?
« Reply #399 on: 22/08/2024 10:54:38 »
I repeat

Quote from: alancalverd on 21/08/2024 12:16:21
By all means invent your own language, but don't misuse ours.
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