[alancalverd]

The HV wires can indeed carry twice the current load. That is the entire remit of National Grid.
But who is going to install the kerbside charging points for citydwellers, and run the supply to them?
What supply? There are several different standards.
Where is the new electricity going to come from? The old 62 GW was based on coal and gas, which could be relied on 24/7 but won't exist in the near future.

[wolfekeeper]

Why would they ever need to build any new capacity for this? There's already time of day charging incentives that the overwhelming majority of electric car charging use that pushes the charging to overnight, when the electricity is cheap and the grid is relatively quiet; and smart chargers and smart meters are becoming ever more common.

The UK grid's production capacity is INCREASING. They're adding more renewable energy/power, as well as keeping the old natural gas production. But they're also burning less fuel, so the costs are not changing very much.

[alancalverd]

Worth looking at the "quiet" grid. Overnight demand is about 10 GW less than daytime peak. There is no solar and consistently less wind power available at night.When the UK goes to "net zero" we will be using magic electricity to replace gas space heating, for which the demand peaks at night.

It is important to remember that, apart from biofuels (which annoy lots of environmentalists) and hydropower (not significantly available in the UK), all renewables are unreliable.

However if we ignore battery-powered cars, there is hope. Britten-Norman are experimenting with hydrogen fuel-cell powered aircraft and Rolls-Royce with hydrogenated bioester fuel as a replacement for aviation kerosene for jets and turboprops. Both technologies retrofit existing aircraft and solve the problems of rapid refuelling and energy storage.
Gasoline and diesel engines  can burn hydrogenated bioesters with little modification and gradual replacement of worn-out i.c.  vehicles with fuel-cell electrics may be even more efficient, particularly as we will need to supply the gas grid with  hydrogen for industry and space heating anyway.

If anything, it looks as though the electricity grid will be used in future only for feeding hydrogen-generating plant!

[Bored chemist]

But who is going to install the kerbside charging points for citydwellers, and run the supply to them?

It's a bit like asking "Who is going to build supermarkets and deliver stock to them?".
Someone who wants to sell the electricity that is delivered through them.

[Bored chemist]

When the UK goes to "net zero" we will be using magic electricity to replace gas space heating, for which the demand peaks at night.

Why do you think storage batteries are  "magic"?

[alancalverd]

Because they can hold 26,000,000,000,000,000 joules at no cost, just to recharge electric cars when the wind doesn't blow for 10 days - like today. Or if they cost something, the initial capital will be paid for by everyone else, for which I and other high-mileage users thank you.

[alancalverd]

It's a bit like asking "Who is going to build supermarkets and deliver stock to them?".
Someone who wants to sell the electricity that is delivered through them.

There's a difference between building on a field or brownsite and digging up a city street, particularly when every such entrepreneur wants to dig up all the other streets at the same time.

If it doesn't happen quickly and evenly, there will be unseemly competition for kerbside charging points at 6 pm. The only way to prevent middleclass rioting will be to wait until all the streets are equipped before switching any on, so I won't be the first to install the kit because I won't make any money until the last guy finishes his project, and he won't be in a hurry in case the one before is  delayed......

[Bored chemist]

There's a difference between building on a field or brownsite and digging up a city street, particularly when every such entrepreneur wants to dig up all the other streets at the same time.

So, more like cable TV than a supermarket.
OK.
So what?

[alancalverd]

I don't see people fighting in the street to plug their TV into the cable.

Suppose I electrify your street, with a socket for every parking space. Then somebody else parks in front of your house and charges his car overnight. No problem, you can use your neighbour's space. Until a third party uses that one....Your street has suddenly become a favorite charging spot for everyone who hasn't got one.

One suggestion I made some time ago is that nobody should be allowed to buy an electric car until he has an assigned parking and charging spot. Easy enough to make it  personal with a lock and key, but suppose I want to buy an electric car tomorrow (because my disgusting old diesel has died) and I will be the first in the street. "They" will have to dig up the street as far back as the 11 kV supply and install a transformer station (because eventually the whole street will need to be electrified). So either they will have to mark out dedicated parking spaces for everyone and install charging points whether or not they are needed, or they will have to dig up the road again every time anyone buys a new car (because there won't be any i.c. cars on sale in 10 years' time)  or Her Majesty's Taxpayer will have to subsidise my travel by paying for a facility he doesn't and can't use until his petrol car dies.

Cable TV doesn't require major road works. The trench from the distribution box to my house was cut with a diamond wheel, cable laid and covered within an hour, then we had the option of using it or not, at no charge for saying no. EWven if I didn't use it, having a cable access point increased the saleability of my house without impacting on anyone else.Similarly for blocks of flats. But assigning a space on a public road is a different matter: in effect, "they" have increased my exclusive domain. Do I need permission to arrogate it?

There are of course plenty of "permit only" parking spaces already in most cities. But  if someone has parked outside your house, it's only a matter of inconvenience to park somewhere else. If they have occupied your assigned charging point, you can't go to work tomorrow. I see a growth market in lift trucks and vehicle pounds.

[wolfekeeper]

You're stressing out about this, but people who actually have electric cars aren't; they've usually got a whole week's worth of charge in their cars, and they just top it up occasionally. Look, most people commute ~30 miles per day to and from work. The days of range anxiety are long gone. Most electric cars have a range of 150-300 miles. If you've forgotten or not been able to charge your car AND you've nearly run out of juice, you just need to stop at a rapid charger (50 kW) for about 5 minutes to get enough range. In the rich parts of London now, there's whole streets full of Porsche Taycan's and Teslas parked on the roads without garages, and they're doing just fine.

[alancalverd]

Early adopters will win. No question. If you have off-street parking and only make short journeys, an electric car is better than a bicycle and almost as good as a scooter. My concern is for the long term, when everyone else has an electric car.

I haven't seen streets full of parked electric cars in London, but I only regularly visit the Harley Street area. Where are they?

[Bored chemist]

Where are they?

Barnet.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9330031/Electric-car-North-South-divide-revealed-ownership-EVs-rises-53.html

[wolfekeeper]

Starts at 16:46, apparently there's a load of Ubitricity chargers in the lamposts and stuff.

[alancalverd]

Where are they?

Barnet.
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-9330031/Electric-car-North-South-divide-revealed-ownership-EVs-rises-53.html

Not parked on the street. Barnet is all about gravel driveways, as shown in the photo.

[alancalverd]

Anyway the good news is that at least 3 major Japanese manufacturers (and one tiny outfit in Wales) are working on hydrogen internal combustion cars, thus solving all the problems.   

[wolfekeeper]

Yup apart from the practical problems which include:

1) high cost of hydrogen  fuel
2) low efficiency of hydrogen production
3) the refuelling stations keep exploding
4) low energy storage density in cars
5) heavy storage density in cars
6) short life of fuel cell membranes
7) the chicken and egg problem of almost complete lack of filling stations

and several more I may have forgotten.

Meanwhiles Teslas and many other electric car types are barrelling down the German Autobahns and motorways of the world in large numbers and can plug into almost any socket, cost nearly as little to buy as a fossil car, have running costs and total cost of ownership well below that of fossil cars, have ranges not dissimilar to fossil cars.

[alancalverd]

Hydrogen fuel costs nothing because it is made by electrolysis, using the spare capacity of wind and solar electricity that would otherwise be used to charge your car (or attract subsidies for not making electricity).

Efficiency of electrolysis is around 80% and the byproducts, oxygen and hot water, are valuable.

Hydrogen was the principal fuel (as "town gas" - 50% hydrogen) for the western world for about 200 years with no more explosions than the current methane. Production by electrolysis rather than the hot "producer gas" process is even safer.

Energy storage density is about 70% of what can be practically achieved with  gasoline.

The distribution network already exists (the gas grid) and will have to switch to hydrogen anyway, when the methane runs out.

Not fuel cells, but existing internal combustion engines with slight retrofit modifications (you can already buy a propane or methane conversion kit).

Home fast charge systems are not intercompatible. Those in service stations charge a lot more for electricity. You could charge your car from a domestic mains socket if you or your destination have a private driveway, or you could get a life.

The "large numbers"  of electric cars are about 0.4%.

The running costs are low right now because you aren't paying 80% fuel tax - yet. The Treasury isn't going to let go of £27 billion a year without a fight! 

Range is unimportant as you have said that most of them are parked in Barnet driveways when they aren't doing the school run. 

Tesla currently ranks 23/30 for reliability, scarcely above the equally fashionable Range Rover.

[Bored chemist]

Energy storage density is about 70% of what can be practically achieved with  gasoline.

Really?
Are you sure you don't mean 13%?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#In_chemical_reactions_(oxidation)
H2 at 690 bar : 1250 W Hr / litre
Gasoline  : 9500 W Hr / litre

Hydrogen is great; but the range of a vehicle with sensible tank size will be  small.

Anyone for methanol?

[alancalverd]

Hydrogen is great; but the range of a vehicle with sensible tank size will be  small.

All depends on what you call a sensible size. The energy density of hydrogen per unit mass is pretty similar to gasoline and 10 times that of a lithium ion battery, so a hydrogen-fuelled car will be a bit larger than its gasoline equivalent, but lighter than an electric car with the same range and power.

Methanol is a bit disappointing in comparison, but if you want to synthesise a liquid fuel from organic waste and hydrogen, propane is easy to handle and can replace gasoline with very little modification to the engine.

[wolfekeeper]

The energy density of hydrogen is much lower than gasoline all round. The mass density is multiple times lower, once you include the mass of the tank, and the volumetric density is too:

"To carry the energy equivalent of 400 L of diesel oil would require a truck to carry a 5 kL hydrogen storage tank, with a weight of 3.4 t."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/compressed-hydrogen

That's quite a lot; it's a factor of ten worse than diesel and adds significantly to the axle weight.

The fuelling stations are extremely rare and tend to explode:

https://uk.motor1.com/news/354304/hydrogen-fuelling-station-explodes-norway/

Putting hydrogen through the existing UK gas pipes is likely to be a nightmare due to hydrogen embrittlement on high pressure steel pipes as well as escapes at low pressure joints:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319913006800

Additionally hydrogen is the most flammable and most explosive gas there is and, charmingly, it also burns with an invisible but extremely hot flame. People walk into flames they can't see. The idea of piping it around the whole UK fills me with dread, particularly through a network that was never designed for it.

There's simply too many problems with it.