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  4. How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
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How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #20 on: 02/01/2022 02:43:57 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 01/01/2022 11:18:32
It was.
I looked at a test tube full of hydrogen.
Can you tell us more about your experience? Do you have any pictures?
What's the characteristic of the scattered light? Is it bright enough to be seen with naked eyes?
How is the distribution of the scattered light? Does it produce reflected light?
If the laser is polarized vertically, does the gas scatter the light upward?
I'm sorry if I ask too much. Your help will be greatly appreciated.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #21 on: 02/01/2022 10:17:00 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/01/2022 02:43:57
Can you tell us more about your experience?
It looked like a test tube full of air.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #22 on: 02/01/2022 13:27:16 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/01/2022 10:17:00
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/01/2022 02:43:57
Can you tell us more about your experience?
It looked like a test tube full of air.
It looks like I have to do the experiment myself.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #23 on: 02/01/2022 16:42:22 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/01/2022 13:27:16
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/01/2022 10:17:00
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/01/2022 02:43:57
Can you tell us more about your experience?
It looked like a test tube full of air.
It looks like I have to do the experiment myself.
What do you expect to see?
Hydrogen looks like air.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #24 on: 02/01/2022 17:04:32 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/01/2022 16:42:22
What do you expect to see?
Hydrogen looks like air.
I expect to see scattered light if the frequency is in Balmer series, and no scattered light when it's not.
If the scattered light is too dim we can just increase the intensity of the laser beam.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #25 on: 02/01/2022 17:07:17 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 01/01/2022 11:18:32
No visible light interacts with hydrogen except via scattering.
If this is true,  then the absorption spectrum of hydrogen is a misnomer. We should call it scattering spectrum instead.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #26 on: 02/01/2022 17:18:18 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/01/2022 17:07:17
Quote from: Bored chemist on 01/01/2022 11:18:32
No visible light interacts with hydrogen except via scattering.
If this is true,  then the absorption spectrum of hydrogen is a misnomer. We should call it scattering spectrum instead.
Not really.
The absorption spectrum of hydrogen gas near room temperature all the way from the microwave up to the vacuum ultraviolet  is a flat line at zero.
Hydrogen gas does not absorb any of that EM radiation.

If you have a spectrum that shows any absorptions then it is wrong, or mislabeled somehow.

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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #27 on: 02/01/2022 17:23:43 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/12/2021 11:39:46
Quote from: Bored chemist on 31/12/2021 10:30:27
It's important to remember that hydrogen gas in a tube is composed of molecules, rather than atoms.
Does it apply for both emission and absorption spectra?

If the laser has a very narrow bandwidth, eventually all electrons in level 2 will go up to level 3. This will make the gas unable to absorb the laser anymore. Is there an experiment demonstrating this hypothesis?
Yes, and I have done that sort of experiment when i was a student (with an NMR transition, rather than a visible one, but the principle is the same),

More generally
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectral_hole_burning
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturable_absorption
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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #28 on: 02/01/2022 17:59:12 »
I think it is also important to note that the Balmer series (and Lyman, and Paschen etc.) are for atomic hydrogen, not molecular hydrogen (H vs H2). H is not stable at standard temperatures and pressures, but is stable at temperatures where electronically excited H atoms are thermally accessible.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #29 on: 02/01/2022 21:49:08 »
How hot does it take for H2 gas to turn into atomic H? I guess it's significantly lower than melting point of glass.
« Last Edit: 03/01/2022 00:17:21 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #30 on: 02/01/2022 22:53:31 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/01/2022 21:49:08
I guess it's significantly lower than melting point of glass.
Very roughly 10,000 degrees.
Hot enough to boil glass (and anything else).
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #31 on: 02/01/2022 23:04:37 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 31/12/2021 11:46:16
I learned that the gas could turn into plasma when exposed to microwave, or high AC voltage from Tesla coil. But they are relatively low frequency radiation compared to what causes photoelectric effect on metals.
You can run an arc with DC.
The frequency is not relevant.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #32 on: 03/01/2022 00:16:40 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/01/2022 22:53:31
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/01/2022 21:49:08
I guess it's significantly lower than melting point of glass.
Very roughly 10,000 degrees.
Hot enough to boil glass (and anything else).

So,  the absorption spectrum can't be observed in a desktop laboratory equipments? How did they produce those data?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #33 on: 03/01/2022 00:17:33 »
One more thing, does the hot gas emit observable thermal radiation? Is there any resemblance to the black body radiation?
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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #34 on: 03/01/2022 01:55:09 »
Emission spectra can be produced in a bench-top (or hand-held) vapor discharge lamp. Low pressure H2 can be broken down by a high voltage: https://www.flinnsci.com/hydrogen-gas-spectrum-tube/ap1334/

As an undergraduate student in a general chemistry laboratory class, I used such devices (for many different elements) as well as a diffraction grating to observe their emission spectra.

I have observed the absorption spectrum of H by analysis of the light from the sun (dark line spectrum, or "Fraunhofer lines")
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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #35 on: 03/01/2022 04:51:03 »
Quote from: chiralSPO on 03/01/2022 01:55:09
Emission spectra can be produced in a bench-top (or hand-held) vapor discharge lamp. Low pressure H2 can be broken down by a high voltage: https://www.flinnsci.com/hydrogen-gas-spectrum-tube/ap1334/

As an undergraduate student in a general chemistry laboratory class, I used such devices (for many different elements) as well as a diffraction grating to observe their emission spectra.

I have observed the absorption spectrum of H by analysis of the light from the sun (dark line spectrum, or "Fraunhofer lines")
I've seen a diagram in a physics article showing that hot hydrogen gas produces emission spectra while cool hydrogen produces absorption spectra. How far from the truth can it be?
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Offline chiralSPO

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #36 on: 03/01/2022 05:24:34 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/01/2022 04:51:03
I've seen a diagram in a physics article showing that hot hydrogen gas produces emission spectra while cool hydrogen produces absorption spectra. How far from the truth can it be?

Cold hydrogen will not emit, only hot. Both hot and cold will absorb.
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Offline evan_au

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #37 on: 03/01/2022 07:26:49 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf
does the hot gas emit observable thermal radiation? Is there any resemblance to the black body radiation?
Yes, the Sun is composed of hot gas (primarily line spectrum), and even hotter plasma (primarily black body radiation).
- In a hot gas, the electrons are in defined shells around the nucleus, with defined energy levels. This produces a line spectrum (absorption and emission lines with specific photon energies)
- In a plasma, electrons are not bound to any particular nucleus, but can take any energy approaching or leaving the vicinity of a nucleus (or another electron). This produces a continuous spectrum (black body radiation, with photons of all energy levels).
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight#Composition_and_power
« Last Edit: 04/01/2022 02:17:48 by evan_au »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #38 on: 03/01/2022 08:15:32 »
Quote from: chiralSPO on 03/01/2022 05:24:34
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/01/2022 04:51:03
I've seen a diagram in a physics article showing that hot hydrogen gas produces emission spectra while cool hydrogen produces absorption spectra. How far from the truth can it be?

Cold hydrogen will not emit, only hot. Both hot and cold will absorb.
So, this diagram is misleading then?
Quote
https://casswww.ucsd.edu/archive/public/tutorial/Stars.html
University of California, San Diego
Center for Astrophysics & Space Sciences
We may consider three principal types of spectra which appear when the light from an object is broken up into its component wavelengths or "dispersed":

a continuous spectrum or continuum; the emission of a thermal spectrum is one type of continuum.
an absorption spectrum or sometimes an absorption-line spectrum.
an emission spectrum or emission-line spectrum.

I found many like this on line, such as.

and
« Last Edit: 03/01/2022 08:18:24 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How can we see ultraviolet light in Balmer series?
« Reply #39 on: 03/01/2022 08:24:28 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/01/2022 22:53:31
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/01/2022 21:49:08
I guess it's significantly lower than melting point of glass.
Very roughly 10,000 degrees.
Hot enough to boil glass (and anything else).

Hydrogen discharge tubes are available on line. They produce Balmer spectrum without causing the glass to boil.
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