[alancalverd]

You will soon be able to get in a car and go to sleep, whilst the car does a steady 150mph to Scotland,

That's 30 mph faster (and 20 minutes shorter) than steam trains 90 years ago, assuming that there are no roadworks on the M6 (never in living memory).

[Petrochemicals]

You will soon be able to get in a car and go to sleep, whilst the car does a steady 150mph to Scotland,

That's 30 mph faster (and 20 minutes shorter) than steam trains 90 years ago, assuming that there are no roadworks on the M6 (never in living memory).

Yep but they will be able to travel faster through any problems any breaking will be managed throughout the traffic column, lanes can be switched direction. Admittedly it will slow the cars but a move able central reservation. Cars also have the advantage that they can negotiate corners where as hs2 seems only to be able to go through MPs Oxfordshire mansions and very expensive to traverse flat fields.

Construction of the 815-kilometer, $13.5 billion Zhengzhou East-Wangzhou line was completed in less than five years.

[wolfekeeper]

I pointed out that, like a plane and unlike a car, most of the energy expended by a high speed train is lost in friction and drag during the long cruise phase and is therefore unrecoverable.

Why cars are different?

They aren't different. Above about 55 mph air drag dominates in cars. But even below that it's second only to rolling friction and similar loses of friction (brakes). Down around 30 mph it's mostly rolling friction.

It's quite a lot of storage, but it is as nothing compared to the amount of storage nuclear power would need.

UK baseload is currently 20 GW and will probably double with the advent of electric road transport. At present we only have about 5 GW of nuclear availability, so it would make sense, at least in power terms, to build a lot more nukes. Indeed if we could settle on a single, known effective design, it might even make economic sense.

Really no, Nuclear is more expensive than both wind and solar. Electric vehicles have enormous flexibility about when they charge and discharge. You do know that base load is supposed to be cheap? Any idiot can make expensive electricity.

[alancalverd]

Electric vehicles have enormous flexibility about when they charge and discharge.

But does the driver have the same flexibility? Some people have wristwatches that tell them when to stand up and when to go to sleep. Clearly the sort of people who will stop driving and recharge their car when the wind blows and the car fancies a top-up. Time was that you couldn't  get to France or America if the wind dropped: pretty soon you won't even be able to get to Tesco on a calm day.

You do know that base load is supposed to be cheap?

25% of your electricity bill is a tax to subsidise renewables (including compensation for not generating electricity when there is a surplus). 5% is just a tax. Half of the rest is profit to be distributed between shareholders and managers of the three companies who generate, transmit and meter it. Base load is indeed cheap (Economy 7 tariff is roughly halved at night - at least while electric cars are in the minority), but somebody has to pay for the unreliable stuff and the cost of privatisation.

[alancalverd]

Yep but they will be able to travel faster through any problems

Including the 50 mph stretches of roadworks, 30 mph sections of "smart" motorways, and the 20-mile tailbacks caused by accidents and breakdowns? If you don't use theM1, M4,  M6, M8  or M25 regularly, just listen to Radio 2 from time to time and ask yourself how a driverless car will magically tunnel through all the stationary traffic at 150 mph. 

[Petrochemicals]

Yep but they will be able to travel faster through any problems

Including the 50 mph stretches of roadworks, 30 mph sections of "smart" motorways, and the 20-mile tailbacks caused by accidents and breakdowns? If you don't use theM1, M4,  M6, M8  or M25 regularly, just listen to Radio 2 from time to time and ask yourself how a driverless car will magically tunnel through all the stationary traffic at 150 mph. 

Stationary traffic believe it or not is just a hairs breadth from peak flow volume. Swarm technology can enable cars to flow at far higher densities than human drivers can manage and at far higher speeds.

[alancalverd]

Until one breaks down or needs to change lanes when the others aren't expecting it. And you'd have to ban any speed-limited vehicle from overtaking, and prevent any non-compatible vehicles from using the road. The problem is that cars are there to serve humans, not the other way around. On the other hand if you want to move 1000 people from A to B at 200 mph or more, a train will do the job nicely.

[Petrochemicals]

Until one breaks down or needs to change lanes when the others aren't expecting it.

Nope, swarm technology copes as well with such situations, the point of a hive mind controller is that they do expect it.

[Bored chemist]

the point of a hive mind controller is that they do expect it.

Not when they break down. That's the ****ing point!

[alancalverd]

No amount of software can make a car travelling at 150 mph pass though a truck doing 50 as it overtakes another doing 49 mph on a 2-lane road. Nor can it repair potholes, dig up the road to turn the emergency hard shoulder into a suicide lane without closing ten miles of track either side of the works, persuade a life member of the Conservative party to accelerate as she enters the motorway and weaves her inebriated way across the lanes to collide with a fire engine, or stop the idiot in font of you from trying to pay a toll with his blind person's bus pass.  Will BMW drivers buy a machine that obeys the Highway Code?

As BC points out, it's just one more thing to go wrong.

[Petrochemicals]

No amount of software can make a car travelling at 150 mph pass though a truck doing 50 as it overtakes another doing 49 mph on a 2-lane road. Nor can it repair potholes,

Hs2 will be a concrete pavement bed, concrete has a substantially a greater lifespan on UK motorways, it is very noisy which is why they covered them over.  They don't suffer from subsidence, potholing etc. Replacement pavement sections can be slotted into place.

Cars can negotiate gradients, go round bends, bypass mansions, avoid faberge eggs. They can also seperate themselves from the traffic stream and go to many locations less than 50km from your door, all without a miltibillion pound station.

The hive technology manages the traffic congestion problems you list. It knows a problem and applies brakes and measures before the human driver can react.

www.thesun.co.uk/motors/17486363/radim-passer-259mph-bugatti-autobahn/amp/

[alancalverd]

It's just after midnight on a clear winter night, and the M6 reports 10 points of congestion and broken-down vehicles, and 30 speed restrictions due to roadworks. Just right for a trip to Scotland at  a constant 150 mph, eh?

[Petrochemicals]

It's just after midnight on a clear winter night, and the M6 reports 10 points of congestion and broken-down vehicles, and 30 speed restrictions due to roadworks. Just right for a trip to Scotland at  a constant 150 mph, eh?

Read this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarm_intelligence

[alancalverd]

It's interesting to calculate the actual time taken for a journey. Consider London - Glasgow, say 350 miles.

According to the manufacturer, on a warm day you could drive a Tesla 350 miles at 50 mph, on a single 100 kWh charge, and take 7 hours. You'd be a few miles short if you used the aircon or heater, so dress for the weather. Let's generously assume that half the energy was expended on rolling friction, motor heat, etc. This means that we have expended 50 kWh on aerodynamic drag at 50 mph.

Now let's make the trip with Hamdani at 150 mph, in the same car.

We can calculate the drag loss at 150  mph, using the standard formula F = ½ρAC_Dv²,  as 50 x (150/50)² = 450 kWh. Add the original 50 kWh for friction losses and we now need 500 kWh for the same journey. So we need to recharge the battery four times en route. As the battery will be hot, maximum charge rate will be about 40 kW, so the charge time will be 10 hours and the whole journey will take 12.3 hours.

For comparison, a comfortable 2 liter diesel "repmobile" (Skoda Octavia, Ford Mondeo, X-type Jaguar....there are plenty to choose from) will complete the journey at 70 mph with just over half a tank of fuel, in 5 hours.

Here's an interesting exam question: at what speed must the Tesla travel in order to make the journey in less time than the Skoda?  Partial recharging (and a 30 minute pee break) is permitted.

[alancalverd]

Read this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarm_intelligence

The defining quality of a swarm is that all its members are sufficiently similar to be able to conform to swarm behavior. So do we all drive 45 ton trucks, or should we transport cranes and tanks by motorbike? 

[hamdani yusuf]

Read this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarm_intelligence

The defining quality of a swarm is that all its members are sufficiently similar to be able to conform to swarm behavior. So do we all drive 45 ton trucks, or should we transport cranes and tanks by motorbike? 

How do you define sufficiently similar?  Ants come in different shapes and sizes in a colony. Some of them can even fly.
I don't think that the differences create much of a problem if they are adequately covered by the software.
Also, the swarm members still have to interact with non-members. Even with inanimate objects.

[alancalverd]

How do you define sufficiently similar?  Ants come in different shapes and sizes in a colony. Some of them can even fly.

The ones that can't fly, don't swarm with the ones that can. And every swarm has a common purpose and destination.

Fact is that when you have lots of different vehicles travelling along a road, the system works pretty well if each vehicle is controlled by software that aims to get it to its own destination as quickly as possible without hitting another vehicle. Training that software takes a few hours during which it learns to cope with various road and weather conditions, interpret signage, anticipate the movement of pedestrians, and a whole load of other stuff. The software is incorporated in a bit of autonomous hardware that can also refuel the vehicle, diagnose faults, and even repair it. Best of all, said hardware is also the principal payload for many vehicles, and where it isn't the principal payload it can seek out and manage payloads, including distributing them to various destinations.

But I digress. We still have the problem that, regardless of software, an electric car at 150 mph takes more than twice as long to get to Glasgow than a diesel car at 70 mph.

[hamdani yusuf]

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/porsche-explodes-the-evs-arent-good-for-long-distance-traveling-myth/

Porsche Explodes The “EVs Aren’t Good For Long Distance Traveling” Myth

A Porsche Taycan recently completed a coast to coast journey, during which it spent a mere 2 hours, 26 minutes, and 48 seconds plugged in to a charger. By doing so, it exploded the myth that electric cars are no good for long distance driving.

[Petrochemicals]

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/porsche-explodes-the-evs-arent-good-for-long-distance-traveling-myth/

Porsche Explodes The “EVs Aren’t Good For Long Distance Traveling” Myth

A Porsche Taycan recently completed a coast to coast journey, during which it spent a mere 2 hours, 26 minutes, and 48 seconds plugged in to a charger. By doing so, it exploded the myth that electric cars are no good for long distance driving.

The 300 million car loving Americans charge points is a problem. Plus the 200,000 dollar price of a porsche and the hideous efficiency of turning shale gas into electric car mileage, 0.45 powerstation x0.8transmission  x0. 85 fast charger x0. 9 car efficiency, plus the carbon invested in the car itself. At present electric vehicles are causing an increace in c02 emmissions.  And will be until we can supply 100 percent electricity from renewables etc.

Read this

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swarm_intelligence

The defining quality of a swarm is that all its members are sufficiently similar to be able to conform to swarm behavior. So do we all drive 45 ton trucks, or should we transport cranes and tanks by motorbike? 

This must be a wind up.

[alancalverd]

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/02/11/porsche-explodes-the-evs-arent-good-for-long-distance-traveling-myth/

Porsche Explodes The “EVs Aren’t Good For Long Distance Traveling” Myth

A Porsche Taycan recently completed a coast to coast journey, during which it spent a mere 2 hours, 26 minutes, and 48 seconds plugged in to a charger. By doing so, it exploded the myth that electric cars are no good for long distance driving.

Fine. 0.32 kWh per mile is pretty much par for driving at 50 mph, so no big deal. Since US speed limits are mostly 70 or 75 mph it is doubtful whether the trip averaged more than 60 on the road.

Driving across the USA in a coal-, oil-,  nuclear-  and gas-powered car* is no big deal either, though diesel actually produces less CO2 per mile, is more thermally efficient, and doesn't require any new infrastructure.

Maximum recharge rate for lithium batteries is very temperature-dependent. Driving at a consistent 60 mph will heat the battery, so you can't fast-recharge as soon as you stop . Not a problem as few people would relish driving more than 350 miles in a day, so you stop, maybe overnight or for a good meal and crew change, and don't recharge at 350 kW until the car has cooled down to max-recharge limits. Your 20-minute recharge has turned into a minimum 3-hour stop, thanks to chemistry and physics.

Now calculate how long it would take at 150 mph, and how many fast-charge stations you would need to visit en route.

Go electric: more haste, less speed!

*about 20% of US installed electricity generating capacity is wind, maybe 10% solar, but unlike Europe, most of that is off-grid, supplying specific rural enterprises and not available to the fast-charge network.