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How does microwave superheat water?

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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #20 on: 28/03/2022 15:43:44 »
Here's my first attempt to superheat water using microwave oven. I used commercial bottled mineral water.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #21 on: 28/03/2022 15:53:10 »
And here's another attempt. This time I used demineralized water.
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #22 on: 28/03/2022 22:46:52 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 27/03/2022 10:43:24
Is there anything that wasn't explained by the conventional explanation?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #23 on: 29/03/2022 02:28:16 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 28/03/2022 22:46:52
Quote from: Bored chemist on 27/03/2022 10:43:24
Is there anything that wasn't explained by the conventional explanation?

What's the conventional explanation?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #24 on: 29/03/2022 14:12:47 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 29/03/2022 02:28:16
Quote from: Bored chemist on 28/03/2022 22:46:52
Quote from: Bored chemist on 27/03/2022 10:43:24
Is there anything that wasn't explained by the conventional explanation?

What's the conventional explanation?
Is this Wikipedia article considered a conventional explanation?
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheated_water
Superheated water is liquid water under pressure at temperatures between the usual boiling point, 100 °C (212 °F) and the critical temperature, 374 °C (705 °F). It is also known as "subcritical water" or "pressurized hot water". Superheated water is stable because of overpressure that raises the boiling point, or by heating it in a sealed vessel with a headspace, where the liquid water is in equilibrium with vapour at the saturated vapor pressure. This is distinct from the use of the term superheating to refer to water at atmospheric pressure above its normal boiling point, which has not boiled due to a lack of nucleation sites (sometimes experienced by heating liquids in a microwave).
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #25 on: 29/03/2022 15:34:15 »
Here's my next experiment
It's an attempt to superheat demineralized water in a styrofoam cup. The result shows whether smooth surface is required for superheating or not.

There are many more videos I've recorded as I've mentioned in another thread last year. I hope I can contribute to improve our understanding on this phenomenon.
« Last Edit: 29/03/2022 15:50:25 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #26 on: 29/03/2022 20:08:25 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 29/03/2022 14:12:47
Is this Wikipedia article considered a conventional explanation?
This bit is.
"This is distinct from the use of the term superheating to refer to water at atmospheric pressure above its normal boiling point, which has not boiled due to a lack of nucleation sites (sometimes experienced by heating liquids in a microwave)."

The explanation is " due to a lack of nucleation sites "
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #27 on: 30/03/2022 03:11:51 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 29/03/2022 20:08:25
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 29/03/2022 14:12:47
Is this Wikipedia article considered a conventional explanation?
This bit is.
"This is distinct from the use of the term superheating to refer to water at atmospheric pressure above its normal boiling point, which has not boiled due to a lack of nucleation sites (sometimes experienced by heating liquids in a microwave)."

The explanation is " due to a lack of nucleation sites "

The question I want to answer is, "what makes good nucleation sites?".
In my video using demineralized water in a smooth glass, the water can still boil before I tested that it's also in superheated state.
My experiments also show that microwave water superheating is a different phenomenon from bumping, because it can be done slowly. The de-superheating process can also be done slowly and locally.
« Last Edit: 30/03/2022 03:16:10 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline Bored chemist

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #28 on: 30/03/2022 08:40:31 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/03/2022 03:11:51
My experiments also show that microwave water superheating is a different phenomenon from bumping, because it can be done slowly.
Heating water slowly in a clean test tube with a flame can also cause bumping.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #29 on: 30/03/2022 13:23:30 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 30/03/2022 08:40:31
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/03/2022 03:11:51
My experiments also show that microwave water superheating is a different phenomenon from bumping, because it can be done slowly.
Heating water slowly in a clean test tube with a flame can also cause bumping.


Have you tried to de-superheat the water by slowly dipping a metal object into it? What did you find?
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumping_(chemistry)
Bumping is a phenomenon in chemistry where homogeneous liquids boiled in a test tube or other container will superheat and, upon nucleation, rapid boiling will expel the liquid from the container. In extreme cases, the container may be broken.[1]

Bumping occurs when a liquid is heated or has its pressure reduced very rapidly, typically in smooth, clean glassware. The hardest part of bubble formation is the formation of the small bubble; once a bubble has formed, it can grow quickly. Because the liquid is typically above its boiling point, when the liquid finally starts to boil, a large vapor bubble is formed that pushes the liquid out of the test tube, typically at high speed.
« Last Edit: 30/03/2022 13:34:12 by hamdani yusuf »
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #30 on: 01/04/2022 06:02:41 »
I've got an electric air heater which is useful to bend acrylic plates. The hot air can reach up to 300°C, which should be enough to boil demineralized water in a smooth glass, and bring it to superheated state, if the microwave is not necessary.
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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #31 on: 01/04/2022 11:39:51 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 30/03/2022 13:23:30
Have you tried to de-superheat the water by slowly dipping a metal object into it?
Of course I haven't.
I know that the best approach is to avoid superheating in the first place or, if you know that it has happened, you let it cool- undisturbed.

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 01/04/2022 06:02:41
I've got an electric air heater which is useful to bend acrylic plates. The hot air can reach up to 300°C, which should be enough to boil demineralized water in a smooth glass, and bring it to superheated state, if the microwave is not necessary.
...
 or you could use a candle.

So what?
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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #32 on: 02/04/2022 05:40:21 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 01/04/2022 11:39:51
Of course I haven't.
I know that the best approach is to avoid superheating in the first place or, if you know that it has happened, you let it cool- undisturbed.
Then you have no evidence that it was superheated.
Quote from: Bored chemist on 01/04/2022 11:39:51
or you could use a candle.

So what?
ordinary candles are too small, hence it would be hard to overcome  radiation heat loss from the water surface and its container. Besides, the hot air is cleaner, so we don't have to worry about soot. 
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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #33 on: 02/04/2022 08:19:08 »
Meanwhile, I'm editing two videos investigating superheated water in microwave oven.

The first will show superheated water under a linear polarizer.
Spoiler: show

The de-superheating process seems more energetic than what's shown in previous experiment when the water was superheated without linear polarizer.


The second video will show superheated water in a glass bowl, which is meant as a larger smooth surface container.
Spoiler: show

It shows localized superheated water, where the water is superheated in one location, but not superheated just a few centimeters next to it.

« Last Edit: 02/04/2022 08:23:35 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #34 on: 02/04/2022 11:34:41 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/04/2022 05:40:21
Then you have no evidence that it was superheated.
In a laboratory context, you often have a thermometer...
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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #35 on: 02/04/2022 11:37:01 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/04/2022 05:40:21
ordinary candles are too small,
I assure you that you can boil a test tube full of water with a candle flame.
The soot is the big problem.

The sort of alcohol burner used in chemistry sets would be a better option.

But that's beside the point.

It hardly matters how you heat the water.
Superheating is nothing to do with microwaves.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #36 on: 02/04/2022 15:58:59 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/04/2022 11:34:41
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/04/2022 05:40:21
Then you have no evidence that it was superheated.
In a laboratory context, you often have a thermometer...

How do you know if the water has been superheated, by using only thermometer?
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #37 on: 02/04/2022 16:00:07 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/04/2022 11:37:01
I assure you that you can boil a test tube full of water with a candle flame.
how big is the test tube?
how much is the water?
how big is the candle?
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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #38 on: 02/04/2022 16:03:49 »
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/04/2022 11:37:01
It hardly matters how you heat the water.
Superheating is nothing to do with microwaves.
My experimental results suggest otherwise.
I'll post them here soon after I finished uploading them.
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Re: How does microwave superheat water?
« Reply #39 on: 02/04/2022 17:13:06 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 02/04/2022 16:03:49
Quote from: Bored chemist on 02/04/2022 11:37:01
It hardly matters how you heat the water.
Superheating is nothing to do with microwaves.
My experimental results suggest otherwise.
I'll post them here soon after I finished uploading them.
People were documenting superheating and supercooling before they knew about microwaves.
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