0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Okay, knowing that this is the same as standard evolution but just with extra stuff added helps. Some more questions:(1) Are the photons you propose generated by the latent heat in living organisms (i.e. are these thermal photons)?(2) The photons emitted by living things typically have wavelengths on the order of hundreds of nanometers whereas nucleotides are less than one nanometer in length. How can a meaningful transfer of information occur when the size difference is so extreme?(3) How much information is encoded per photon? Is it a single nucleotide or many? What is the mechanism that translates nucleotide sequences into photons and vice versa?(4) How does the genetic machinery of the cell know where to insert these new mutations into the DNA without disrupting existing genes? Since there would be a wide array of photons being received with a variety of genetic information encoded on them, how does the cell distinguish between the genetic information that would be beneficial from that which is detrimental? Keep in mind that a gene that benefits one organism might do nothing for (or worse, even harm) another organism.
Thank you for the reply Kryptid. I think you made a couple errors though. One is that the cross sectional area is going to scale with the chances of a photon running into it, volume will not so it shouldn't be used. Volume cubes with radius and cross sectional area squares. Surface area also squares and is easier to look up so I used that to compare the odds.The volume of the sun may be 1.3 million times bigger than the earth but it's surface area is only about 12,000 times bigger. A photon doesn't care how thick something is.
Its true that the nanometer length of DNA is pretty short 2.5 nanometers putting it in the X ray range. But we must also recognize that DNA is not the only helix there is. Because the DNA gets coiled into histones and then histones are coiled into nucleosomes, and then nucleosomes, get coiled into coils, and then coils get coiled into super coils. The biggest Helix structure is the supercoil and that is 250 nanometers in the U.V. That's why in my first post I did the math for how many photons can be created based on the energy level of a 250 nanometer photon. This is the photon that matters.
The first thing to realize is that the chromosome does not "build" the photons but photons build photons. Like a laser. A laser is an energy source in a mirrored cavity. The photons bounce around in this cavity stimulating the creation of more photons just like them.
Interestingly though, when you think about it. Even though we associate tumors with death, tumors are not trying to kill you at all. A tumor is trying to exist and if you die, it dies. This is why tumors target non vital organs more like the breasts and the prostate, not things like the heart and why they spread the load through metastasis maximizing size without shutting down any individual organ.
We could set up a series to factor the odds of the acceleration of the universe since it doubles every 10 billion years.
But I don't know how to calculate the dust asteroids, and especially to factor in the time interval it takes to hit anything at all.
Quote from: Kryptid on 28/03/2022 21:34:05Okay, knowing that this is the same as standard evolution but just with extra stuff added helps. Some more questions:(1) Are the photons you propose generated by the latent heat in living organisms (i.e. are these thermal photons)?(2) The photons emitted by living things typically have wavelengths on the order of hundreds of nanometers whereas nucleotides are less than one nanometer in length. How can a meaningful transfer of information occur when the size difference is so extreme?(3) How much information is encoded per photon? Is it a single nucleotide or many? What is the mechanism that translates nucleotide sequences into photons and vice versa?(4) How does the genetic machinery of the cell know where to insert these new mutations into the DNA without disrupting existing genes? Since there would be a wide array of photons being received with a variety of genetic information encoded on them, how does the cell distinguish between the genetic information that would be beneficial from that which is detrimental? Keep in mind that a gene that benefits one organism might do nothing for (or worse, even harm) another organism.Okay, now we are talking. All four of these are great and pointed questions. We'll go one at a time. 1. Anything source of energy that creates photons is fair game. Heat is certainly one. Photosynthesis/sunlight is another. The biggest contributor is ion pumps, which is why I think the body uses 50% of its calories on just that. 25% comes from just the sodium potasium ion pump but there are other pumps. This is also why Eukaryotes attach their nucleus and organelles to the membrane where the electrical gradient is greatest. Prokaryotes who don't have this pump and don't have a true nucleus ( eukaryote actually means "true nuclei") does not bound their organelle or genetic material to the membrane. Another clue to its function. It is also interesting to note that the brain uses 70% of it's energy for Ion pumps alone. If you also consider each neuron has slightly unique DNA this means the brain could have huge potential to gather information. This process is called somatic mosaicism and it leads to unique variance in DNA in each neuron. I'm not suggesting telepathy here, but I do think the brain can use "directed" mutations to drive learning and novelty as well. The immune system also uses somatic mosaicism to create new antibodies. This is a whole new discussion if you want to go down that road. We can form a whole new concept of the brain and immune system as well.2. Its true that the nanometer length of DNA is pretty short 2.5 nanometers putting it in the X ray range. But we must also recognize that DNA is not the only helix there is. Because the DNA gets coiled into histones and then histones are coiled into nucleosomes, and then nucleosomes, get coiled into coils, and then coils get coiled into super coils. The biggest Helix structure is the supercoil and that is 250 nanometers in the U.V. That's why in my first post I did the math for how many photons can be created based on the energy level of a 250 nanometer photon. This is the photon that matters. I would like to note here, that just because my theory says that waves play a role does not mean it is the ONLY thing that can play a role. I'm not saying everything every biologist ever created is stupid, I'm saying we need both of these viewpoints to paint the whole picture. My theory is superior when we are discussing the big picture and the chromosome as a whole. Could X rays play a role on building one Gene? Possibly but I need to learn more about that. It could be genes are independent of the larger wave, or that there are other little photons being collectively shared by nearby organisms. But I do think that U.V. photons can dominate the functioning of the chromosome at large. It's tough to answer questions definitively when there is more than one viable option. I'm entertaining a few potential setups at the same time right now. It's tough to answer what x or why is if all you know is x+y=8. I think the real answer is some hybridized mechanical version, but generally speaking I'd like to entertain a pure field concept just to keep it simpler and to stress the parts people don't really know how to think about yet. 3. Two more very good, very loaded questions. The first one is, how much information can the photon carry? First off, I'd like to point out that there is a Quantum mechanics technical definition of information and I'd like to stress that we are NOT talking about that. If by information you mean, is it possible that we could transmit the entire genome on one photon, I would say absolutely yes. Does it is less clear. However, there are potential ways around a 250 nanometer length photon creating 2.5 nanometer length structures. The simplest answer could be that wave-functions have structures on them that are smaller than their wavelength. Like you could say an ocean wave has an amplitude of 8 feet, but a surfer could make a smaller wave on that wave from his board. He could then throw a pebble on his on wave on the bigger wave making three waves occupying the same space simultaneously. Can a single photon be the constituent of many waves simultaneously creating the many waves of the entire genome, I'm not sure, but I can't say that doesn't exist. I need more experts from the physics side around me to ask questions like this. And even if that was physically impossible, a bigger structure could be used that was capable of building a smaller structure afterwards. The pure field theory supports the former concept, the hybrid the latter. I would say though, I definitely think waves play a role somewhere or else there is no good reason DNA would be structured like that. The second part of your question is. How do (chromosomes) create photons and vis a vis? Again there are a couple potential good models here for how photons build chromosomes. For the wave model we could say that photons being replicated over the photons impart momentum on atoms directly based on the average potential of their wavefunctions summing up to impart physical change directly. The other concept is that these wavefunctions simply provide a "guide" for other structures to know where to build them by the presence of the photons. For instance if there are more photons in this quadrant build an A if there are the most in this quadrant build a T etc. Either one works but the former is the more pure field concept. I've watched a lot of animation videos on how the body builds itself, but I often find myself pondering, how much of these animations are "real" and how much is just what people think? How far are scientists over their skies when they claim they know how the body builds itself? I'm not sure. 4. The question of how the body differentiates good photons from bad ones is related to how the chromosome "builds" photons. The first thing to realize is that the chromosome does not "build" the photons but photons build photons. Like a laser. A laser is an energy source in a mirrored cavity. The photons bounce around in this cavity stimulating the creation of more photons just like them. This is basically the model of a chromosome and the concept behind the threshold point I wrote a lot about about in an earlier post. The role the chromosome plays is it creates a condition that only a very small amount of photons can achieve, which is to reach the Threshold Product which I define as multiplying the average number of bounces a photon makes when it enters the chromosome before escaping by the average amount of photons created per bounce. So if the average amount of bounces a photon makes when it hits a chromosome is 20 as long as there is a greater than 5% chance of creating a photon per bounce the photon will replicate faster than it can escape which I call reaching the threshold point. If the threshold point is above 1, the photons will replicate indefinitely. Once this happens there will be many many photons capable of imparting physical change, which could be maintaining the structure of the chromosome or aiding in some sort of physical action in the body, whatever that may be. Actually when I talk about a tumor photon mutating and attacking another chromosome, we need to think about it in the context of this new outlook of the chromosome. For starters, a photon can only hihack a healthy chromosome if it can outcompete the photons that are already there. If the threshold product for a tumor is higher than a healthy photon your body will lose control of the cell to the tumor and now you have problems. This only happens if the tumor wavefunction matches the geometry of the chromosome better than the one that actually built the chromosome which is not usually the case unless one of two things happen. One, the chromosome gets damaged. What I'm suggesting is that damage to the chromosome is not automatically permanent, but becomes permanent when it gets damaged while simultaneously encountering a photon whose wavefunction matches the damaged chromosome better than the original, that's when the damage can become a permanent mutation. Without that rogue photon the original photons still have an opportunity to rebuild. That is the connection between damage and tumors.So photons can not actually dictate change in other chromosomes, but what they can do is they can make change permanent if something accidentally mutates, tumors specialize in capitalizing on this mistake, but usually mutations come from other lifeforms like yourself. The other mistake that can lead to tumors is if the energy around the chromosome is to high. This may allow other populations of photons to cohabitate with the chromosome and if their numbers rise to high for too long they may begin to cause physical change in the chromosome to their advantage, causing their numbers to rise even higher until they outcompete the original and the body loses control of the cell to the tumor. Those are the two general ways I'm proposing tumors enter the body. These visuals explain everything I've ever learned about cancer if you think about them.How does the body know that a photon is good or bad? Well it doesn't per se, but what it does know is that if a photon is able to replicate itself in your 3 billions base pairs better than anything else, probabilistically it's almost assuredly on your side and almost definitely from some form of successful life and if it's not, well you are screwed anyways so you might as well listen. Interestingly though, when you think about it. Even though we associate tumors with death, tumors are not trying to kill you at all. A tumor is trying to exist and if you die, it dies. This is why tumors target non vital organs more like the breasts and the prostate, not things like the heart and why they spread the load through metastasis maximizing size without shutting down any individual organ. It's your body that wants you to die if it's too aggressive so they can't infect other versions of you somewhere else. This is why there is a 30% chance you make it to 90 and a 2.5 chance out of 10,000! that you make it to 100. Basically you are guaranteed to die within ten years when you are 90. A planned death is actually optimal to Universal Evolution. Just like how the body kills cells to avoid harming the whole body. You're body will plan its death based on its metrics to stop you from infecting others like you.
The biggest problem you have is that the only photos emitted by biology - mainly heat and a little light- are indistinguishable from photons emitted by essentially every solid thing in the universe (and also quite a lot on gaseous things).Silicon valley won't take long to notice that.
I then calculated how many photons would make it out to different distances, assuming no obstacles got in the way. My results were that you'd get about 8,780 photons per square meter per year at the distance of Alpha Centauri. At 10 light-years out, it's about 1,600 photons per square meter per year. At 100 light-years it's 16. At 1,000 light-years it's 0.16. So I think it's plausible that biogenic photons can make it out to planets around other stars. That being said, I think we can move on to other matters.
So I think it's plausible that biogenic photons can make it out to planets around other stars. That being said, I think we can move on to other matters.What I'd like to focus on now is how the information is encoded in the photons. I don't know that I got a good answer for my question about that. What physical property about photons are different when they encode different nucleotide sequences?
What physical property about photons are different when they encode different nucleotide sequences?
Quote from: Kryptid on 02/04/2022 23:34:33What physical property about photons are different when they encode different nucleotide sequences?None.That was my point.A photon from an ant looks identical to a photon from the rock it is standing on,That's why we know you are wrong.
Imagine a photon.This photon can replicate itself
Quote from: Bored chemist on 06/04/2022 08:48:56Quote from: Kryptid on 02/04/2022 23:34:33What physical property about photons are different when they encode different nucleotide sequences?None.That was my point.A photon from an ant looks identical to a photon from the rock it is standing on,That's why we know you are wrong.Yawn. Just go away Bored Chemist.I was a little restless tonight, woke up and was going to write a detailed response to post number 67 because by some miracle you managed to not send some lame insult or response, but thanks for reminding me why I don't take anything you say seriously. You are not clever.....at all. I'm done with you. Go back to intellectually bullying somebody who is still doubting themselves on their learning and intellectual journey like I've seen you do in other threads. You are talking to somebody who knows for a fact they are way out of your league. Now please go away so I continue the adult conversation with Kryptid.
Quote from: thebrain13 on 06/04/2022 10:33:23Quote from: Bored chemist on 06/04/2022 08:48:56Quote from: Kryptid on 02/04/2022 23:34:33What physical property about photons are different when they encode different nucleotide sequences?None.That was my point.A photon from an ant looks identical to a photon from the rock it is standing on,That's why we know you are wrong.Yawn. Just go away Bored Chemist.I was a little restless tonight, woke up and was going to write a detailed response to post number 67 because by some miracle you managed to not send some lame insult or response, but thanks for reminding me why I don't take anything you say seriously. You are not clever.....at all. I'm done with you. Go back to intellectually bullying somebody who is still doubting themselves on their learning and intellectual journey like I've seen you do in other threads. You are talking to somebody who knows for a fact they are way out of your league. Now please go away so I continue the adult conversation with Kryptid.Shouting "go away" is not what most people think of as "adult conversation".It won't even distract people from the fact that you are plainly wrong, and you know it.That's why you try to attack me- because you know that you can't actually address my point.A photon is just a photon.The thing it hits can't "know" if it came from an ant or a rock.
Quote from: Bored chemist on 06/04/2022 10:58:17Quote from: thebrain13 on 06/04/2022 10:33:23Quote from: Bored chemist on 06/04/2022 08:48:56Quote from: Kryptid on 02/04/2022 23:34:33What physical property about photons are different when they encode different nucleotide sequences?None.That was my point.A photon from an ant looks identical to a photon from the rock it is standing on,That's why we know you are wrong.Yawn. Just go away Bored Chemist.I was a little restless tonight, woke up and was going to write a detailed response to post number 67 because by some miracle you managed to not send some lame insult or response, but thanks for reminding me why I don't take anything you say seriously. You are not clever.....at all. I'm done with you. Go back to intellectually bullying somebody who is still doubting themselves on their learning and intellectual journey like I've seen you do in other threads. You are talking to somebody who knows for a fact they are way out of your league. Now please go away so I continue the adult conversation with Kryptid.Shouting "go away" is not what most people think of as "adult conversation".It won't even distract people from the fact that you are plainly wrong, and you know it.That's why you try to attack me- because you know that you can't actually address my point.A photon is just a photon.The thing it hits can't "know" if it came from an ant or a rock.Get real dude. In spite of being twice my age you have not talked like an adult this entire time and your responses have been pure trash. You've been posting lame insults or responses that have NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about the whole time because that is all YOU have. Your responses are a joke. Maybe a lot of people on this site can't see that, but I am not one of those people.
To answer your question, photons replicate, then they carry little differences in their wavefunctions when they replicate. In normal geometries like an oven, they will indeed tend to adapt to the shape of the oven to an extent. For instance, if the oven has 2 meter walls, there will be more photons with wavelengths that are some integer of that wavelength. You could deduce that from the little cloning concept.