[acsinuk (OP)]

Politicians should not panic about warming as it is a natural reaction to the increase in world population.
There are 4 times as many people now that in 1945 at end of WW2 who need to be fed with carbohydrates, meat and live in new warm houses and drive cars to work.  It is their human right to have all these things.
So the increase in CO2 is to be expected as a necessity and we must live with it.
But hydrocarbon fuels must be preserved for transport and as much solar, wind , tidal, nuclear developed for electric and heat generation as is financial practical but not by expensive panic investments.
Sea weeds like kelp are ideal for sequesting  carbon dioxide into the oceans and these grow extremely quickly.

See

So CO2 is not so much a problem but we must bubble the CO2 from power plants into deep sea water which is a slow process but possible but what of the sea level rises?


"The PSMSL WWW page reports the 2013 IPCC WG1 statement that 

"It is very likely that the mean rate of global averaged sea level rise was 1.7 [1.5 to 1.9] mm/yr between 1901 and 2010, 2.0 [1.7 to 2.3] mm/yr between 1971 and 2010 and 3.2 [2.8 to 3.6] mm/yr between 1993 and 2010. Tide-gauge and satellite altimeter data are consistent regarding the higher rate of the latter period"

So it looks as if the sea rise will be around 36 mm per decade or one and a half inches which should be easily containable.

We must live with that climate change until we can slow world population growth.  Now the saving grace is that fully industrialised nations have a negative population growth rate because educated people realize that having more than 2 children is expensive.

Thus the need to educate developing economies and encourage family planning is thus obviously the way forward to improve their standard of living with all the advantages of high standards of living that prosperous states provide..

[Bored chemist]

How did you come to the conclusion that you understand this issue better than all the professionals?

[alancalverd]

...said the Pope to Galileo.

Problem is that there is no money to be made from a declining population, or from claiming that there is no impending crisis, and every politician has to say "growth" ten times a day to earn his salary. The teeming masses have every right to want a western standard of living, and that can't be achieved with renewable energy alone, so fossil fuel consumption must rise until it is all exhausted. So we are doomed in the short or long term.

If the emperor has no clothes, it is up to everyone to say so. And just for once, acsinuk has said it.

[acsinuk (OP)]

Correct Alan,
Politicians must serve their electorate by explaining to people that if they only have 2 children then when they die they can pass their house onto one of their children.  The result is that on average only a few new improved replacement homes have to be built and the existing roads, water and electric infrastructure maintained.
Scandinavian countries do this and have amongst others the highest standard of living in the world.  Large organisations trying to increase their market share can still influence decision makers by offering incentives but the basic economy will remain sound but with developing countries instability will arise.due to inflation of construction materials.

[Peter11]

I agree the population is out of control.Electric vehicles are a bandaid solution that won't save the planet.The more people the more demand as we can see with higher prices.A loaf of bread was 20 cents in 1970.There is a housing crisis we can't build them fast enough.There is also a huge movement of people in the world that no one wants.It just seems we have the blinders on I don't know how someone could say its not a problem.People are looked at as consumers when thats how you look at things you want more people.Unfortunately thats how we see it.Its a very selfish way of looking at things.Everything is done for profit try and get in the way of that and you will be shut down.
I truly believe certain tech has been buried due to big oil.Edison said to Telsa who promised free energy not if we can't put a meter on it.
If someone came up with a free clean energy source they would disappear with their tech because of the sheer volume of money involved you would be killed.

[acsinuk (OP)]

Population explosion in Sudan and south Sahara is causing huge problems as modern farming techniques need water which means that larger than ever, traditional nomadic families have nowhere to water their camels and flocks of sheep and many land up in refugee camps.  They are starving and feel totally neglected but as most have had no education become understandable desperate.
Aid agencies can assist but this may only exasperate their problem if the refugees continue to producing more children as is happening in Cox's Bazaar and other refugee camps in Syria, Afghanistan etc.
I know that providing food aid that is impregnated with a contraceptive agent is controversial but it is really necessary.
This, along with equipment to drill fresh water wells, tractors to plant seed, solar panels and car batteries for light and communications already supplied would reduce the number of starving babies we see on TV and allow the refugees to build homes and feed themselves and thus start to eat food that is not impregnated.

[Bored chemist]

I know that providing food aid that is impregnated with a contraceptive agent is controversial but it is really necessary.

Take a long careful look at yourself.

[alancalverd]

I know that providing food aid that is impregnated with a contraceptive agent is controversial but it is really necessary.

But unethical.

What is needed is to replace religion with education, provide free contraception to anyone who wants it, and make it clear  to everyone that you and you alone are responsible for the production and welfare of your children.

[acsinuk (OP)]

Agreed, the bill of rights appears to give a husband congugal rights over his wife.  However, surely the wife should have the right to access free contraception as well as abortions.
Most countries offer residents a free national health service which soon becomes overloaded when really they should be giving free contraception to obviate the increase in population that is the root cause of the overload.
Oxfam and other charity agencies should insist that countries who apply for famine aid have or are passing a law that free contraception is available to any and all women before sending food aid that is only exasperating their problem.

[Bored chemist]

Agreed, the bill of rights appears to give a husband congugal rights over his wife.

The law in civilised countries does not.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/criminal-law-rape-within-marriage

However, surely the wife should have the right to access free contraception as well as abortions.

Yes, but "right to access" is nothing like

providing food aid that is impregnated with a contraceptive agent

is it?

One involves choice.

Most countries offer residents a free national health service which soon becomes overloaded when really they should be giving free contraception

In the UK and, I believe, most Western countries, contraception is free.
Ask at your local family planning clinic.

food aid that is only exasperating their problem.

Food doesn't exacerbate (note the spelling, btw) the problem.
It stops people starving.

The usual problem is exploitation by rich countries.

[alancalverd]

I dispute the last point. It is far from clear that all African people have prospered since the British left. Internal corruption, tribalism, and the malign influence of religion have caused more harm and killed more people than the colonists ever did. Much the same could be said for the partitioning of India.

[Bored chemist]

I dispute the last point. It is far from clear that all African people have prospered since the British left. Internal corruption, tribalism, and the malign influence of religion have caused more harm and killed more people than the colonists ever did. Much the same could be said for the partitioning of India.

Do you know how much water we "import" from southern Africa?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_water
What does "since the British left." have to do with it?

[Zer0]

Freedom is Not worth having, if it does not Include the Freedom to make Mistakes.

🕊️

[acsinuk (OP)]

Having just wintered in New Zealand I have noticed that the sunsets are no longer vivid but occur more frequently and are/have a washed out look.  Could this be due to more CO2 in the atmosphere?  Anyone else noticed this effect which might be linked to global warming and the intensification of  the hurricanes we have just experienced.

[Bored chemist]

sunsets are no longer vivid but occur more frequently

The occur once a day.

[alancalverd]

CO2 has even less impact on the visible spectrum than it does in the infrared.

[vhfpmr]

Politicians should not panic about warming as it is a natural reaction to the increase in world population.

So is extinction.

There are 4 times as many people now that in 1945 at end of WW2 who need to be fed with carbohydrates, meat and live in new warm houses and drive cars to work.  It is their human right to have all these things.

There is no human rights clause in the laws of physics.

So the increase in CO2 is to be expected as a necessity and we must live with it.

So human rights extend to owning a home, but not to having it safe from burning down in a wildfire.

Sea weeds like kelp are ideal for sequesting  carbon dioxide into the oceans and these grow extremely quickly.

Once the seaweed has grown to maturity, where do you store it all to prevent it from releasing the carbon as it decomposes, and to make space for the next generation of seaweed that's going to absorb the next batch of carbon emissions?

So it looks as if the sea rise will be around 36 mm per decade or one and a half inches which should be easily containable.

That's not a very long term argument. There are plenty of maps published showing how much of the land mass will be under water by the time sea level rise is done.

Thus the need to educate developing economies and encourage family planning is thus obviously the way forward

Keep up, Hans Rosling explains here that the birth rate already is under control, and the present rise in population is what's already baked in to the system as todays kids grow up and have kids of their own. If the birth rate doesn't go back up again for any reason, the population will stabilise at ~ 11bn.

improve their standard of living with all the advantages of high standards of living that prosperous states provide..

The problem is that 12% of the population is hogging 85% of the wealth. With a fairly trivial cut in consumption by the rich, the poor can enjoy a huge increase in living standards without any increase in cabon emissions.

What's needed is a means of curbing economic growth, because that's what's ultimately unsustainable, and as someone above said, that's always taken as a prerequisite for entry into political circles. We need to learn to take the benefit of productivity improvements as an increase in leisure time instead of an increase in consumption, but to stand any chance of making some headway in that direction requires some understanding of the psychology of status competition among both politicians and the general population.

We're locked into this endless cycle of consuming more and more because a consumer society is one in which people's satus is determined by how much they consume: the Jones's are only content when they have a bigger car than the Smiths, and the Smiths when they have a bigger car than the Jones's etc. The obvious problem is that this is a zero-sum game, because no amount of wealth can ever satisfy both the Jones's and the Smiths at the same time, and so the cycle of waste just gets perpetuated.

Ending climate change depends on ending growth, and ending growth depends on dealing with status competition in a less destructive way, but consumption is a more powerful status symbol than leisure time.

[Zer0]

BTW...What is the Worst that could happen if We take No measure to curb Climate Change & Global Warming?

What's the max Scale or Magnitude of Destruction...
Earth turns into Venus?

[alancalverd]

Since there is no effective measure that can be taken, our descendants will find out in the next 100 - 500 years or so.

My best guess is that it will get a bit hotter, several billion people will die from starvation, a few million will die from wars caused by mass migration, and then it will begin to get colder again.

Nature is indifferent as to the fate of any particular species, and homo sapiens is more fragile than most.

[Zer0]

Hmm...& How about if All of the Polar Ice Caps & All Glaciers meltdown?

What's the scale or altitude of Doom?

Mount Everest goes underwater eh?