The Naked Scientists
  • Login
  • Register
  • Podcasts
      • The Naked Scientists
      • eLife
      • Naked Genetics
      • Naked Astronomy
      • In short
      • Naked Neuroscience
      • Ask! The Naked Scientists
      • Question of the Week
      • Archive
      • Video
      • SUBSCRIBE to our Podcasts
  • Articles
      • Science News
      • Features
      • Interviews
      • Answers to Science Questions
  • Get Naked
      • Donate
      • Do an Experiment
      • Science Forum
      • Ask a Question
  • About
      • Meet the team
      • Our Sponsors
      • Site Map
      • Contact us

User menu

  • Login
  • Register
  • Home
  • Help
  • Search
  • Tags
  • Recent Topics
  • Login
  • Register
  1. Naked Science Forum
  2. Non Life Sciences
  3. Physics, Astronomy & Cosmology
  4. Complex or real wave function?
« previous next »
  • Print
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Complex or real wave function?

  • 5 Replies
  • 2736 Views
  • 5 Tags

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline compuAI (OP)

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 23
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
Complex or real wave function?
« on: 12/11/2022 19:26:46 »
It is not clear what complex wave function means in Schrödinger, Pauli, Dirac equations. Is it always two-component (complex), or can it be real, or are both variants possible in different situations?
For example, how to understand:
-i • h/(2•π) • ∂ψ/∂t = h2/(8•π2•m) • div grad ψ
(for simplicity in absence of potential multiplied by function).
The imaginary unit “i” simply shows that quantum operator is used instead of classical derivative, or function must be divided into two components:
ψ = ψ1 + i • ψ2
and then in reality there are two equations
∂ψ1/∂t ~ div grad ψ2
∂ψ2/∂t ~ div grad ψ1
(~ symbol means is proportional with a constant multiplier).
In this case, the question arises how this relates to de Broglie equation, because it turns out to be
∂2ψ1/∂t2 ~ div grad (div grad ψ1)
∂2ψ2/∂t2 ~ div grad (div grad ψ2)
instead of traditional ∂2ψ/∂t2 ~ div grad ψ
or ∂2ψ/∂t2 ~ rot rot ψ for different kinds of waves.
Or is function real (should be, or can be)?
If Maxwell's equation is written as one formula, there are two components, electric field and magnetic, but instead of squared nabla single nabla (curl) is used, and this is consistent as de Broglie wave.
Do Pauli and Dirac equations follow the same principle as Schrödinger equation with respect to the complexity of function, or there are differences?
Logged
 



Offline Zer0

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 1932
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 232 times
  • Email & Nickname Alerts Off! P.M. Blocked!
Re: Complex or real wave function?
« Reply #1 on: 14/11/2022 16:42:56 »
I have zero Understanding on the Topic...

But I'm responding so that your OP goes back to the Top of the page list..

& Then Hopefully someone shall take Notice of it & perhaps try to Answer.

Thanks!
Logged
1N73LL1G3NC3  15  7H3  481L17Y  70  4D4P7  70  CH4NG3.
 
The following users thanked this post: compuAI

Offline compuAI (OP)

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • 23
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 2 times
  • Naked Science Forum Newbie
Re: Complex or real wave function?
« Reply #2 on: 14/11/2022 21:07:32 »
It seems the topic is solved. I have gotten answers in another way.
As it turned out, within the framework of quantum mechanics wave function is always complex,
and both components are important. The name "wave" was assigned for historical reasons,
since in some special cases stationary function is really similar to standing waves.
But in reality these are "diffusion" equations, not "wave" equations, where first time
derivative corresponds to second spatial derivative (div grad).
Logged
 
The following users thanked this post: Zer0

Offline evan_au

  • Global Moderator
  • Naked Science Forum GOD!
  • ********
  • 11035
  • Activity:
    9%
  • Thanked: 1486 times
Re: Complex or real wave function?
« Reply #3 on: 15/11/2022 07:22:15 »
Quote from: compuAI
both (real & imaginary) components are important
As I understand it, the magnitude of a wave function indicates the probability of detecting the particle in a particular place.
- The magnitude includes both real and imaginary components

Logged
 
The following users thanked this post: Zer0, Eternal Student, compuAI

Offline Eternal Student

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 1832
  • Activity:
    7.5%
  • Thanked: 470 times
Re: Complex or real wave function?
« Reply #4 on: 15/11/2022 12:18:14 »
Hi.

Quote from: evan_au on 15/11/2022 07:22:15
As I understand it, the magnitude of a wave function indicates the probability of detecting the particle in a particular place.
   Yes.      At a particular place and also a particular time  if  ψ = ψ(x,t) = a function of space AND time,    which is how  CompuAI seemed to be representing the wave function.   
    Also,   it's a probability density rather than a probability on it's own.        Given a small element of space  δx    and  of time δt    then  you do need to multiply by the space-time volume element  δt δx,    so that    |ψ(x,t)|2 . δx . δt    =  probability of finding the particle in the element of space  between  x and x + δx    and  at a time between   t and t + δt.
     Similar idea  if  it's 3-dimensional space instead of just one dimensional along the x-axis.    Then  we use the space element δ3x  =  δx δy δz.

    Anyway,  the first part of what CompuAI had written looks OK.    You CAN consider the Schrodinger equation as a some differential equations involving only a real valued  function(s) if you want to.    In that case,  you have a PAIR  of simulatenous differential equations linking time derivatives of  Ψ1 (x,t)  to  space derivatives of Ψ2 (x,t)    (and vice versa....  time derivatives of Ψ2   are linked to space derivatives of Ψ1 )   but   both  Ψ1    and  Ψ2    are  real-valued functions.

     In general, it's NOT easier that way.    In solving that pair of simultaneous differential equations you probably would start by just writing it as one combined differential equation with a complex valued function.    However, it's of some relevance because there is always the discussion point about whether Complex numbers are in some sense "real",  i.e. that they have some deep real world meaning because they are essential in Quantum Mechanics.    The sort of thing where you replace the Schrodinger equation with a pair of real valued differential equations suggests that,  no you don't need Complex numbers,   you can keep all wave functions real valued  BUT it's harder that way.

Best Wishes.
Logged
 
The following users thanked this post: evan_au, Zer0, compuAI



Offline Zer0

  • Naked Science Forum King!
  • ******
  • 1932
  • Activity:
    0%
  • Thanked: 232 times
  • Email & Nickname Alerts Off! P.M. Blocked!
Re: Complex or real wave function?
« Reply #5 on: 15/11/2022 17:36:26 »
Compu...Oddly you Always end up Answering your Own questions.
Simply Brilliant!
👌
& Thanks for making it a point to Post Answers to your Own OPs once you find them out.
I'm Sure future readers & generations shall Benefit from it.
👍
Logged
1N73LL1G3NC3  15  7H3  481L17Y  70  4D4P7  70  CH4NG3.
 



  • Print
Pages: [1]   Go Up
« previous next »
Tags: maxwell  / pauli  / dirac  / schrodinger  / equations 
 
There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
  • SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
    Privacy Policy
    SMFAds for Free Forums
  • Naked Science Forum ©

Page created in 0.655 seconds with 41 queries.

  • Podcasts
  • Articles
  • Get Naked
  • About
  • Contact us
  • Advertise
  • Privacy Policy
  • Subscribe to newsletter
  • We love feedback

Follow us

cambridge_logo_footer.png

©The Naked Scientists® 2000–2017 | The Naked Scientists® and Naked Science® are registered trademarks created by Dr Chris Smith. Information presented on this website is the opinion of the individual contributors and does not reflect the general views of the administrators, editors, moderators, sponsors, Cambridge University or the public at large.