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I can't figure out how these objects can both be travelling through time in only one direction.
Does light have more than one direction?
Quote from: Dimensional on 09/12/2022 15:59:39I can't figure out how these objects can both be travelling through time in only one direction.Because the time dimension is orthogonal to all 3 spatial dimensions.
Quote from: OPDoes light have more than one direction?In Quantum Theory, light can be represented by a wave function.- This wave function varies over time and space- With the curious effect that everyone who measures its speed locally (in their lab) measures the speed as c- However, people in different frames of reference will measure the direction differently, since there is no universal set of coordinates.- The amplitude of the wavefunction determines the probability of finding a photon in a particular place.If we simplify this by measuring everything relative to the "same" frame of reference...- If we have an isotropic light source, the wavefunction is spherically symmetrical - ie the light has "every" direction. There is equal probability of detecting the photon in any particular 1mm2 area- If we have a laser beam, the wavefunction might be strongly directed along the "+x" axis, with very little divergence. In this case, the wavefunction is very asymmetric, and you could say that the light has a direction along the +x axis. You are much more likely to detect a photon in a 1mm2 area near the +x axis.- Both wavefunctions spread out as time goes on, so the chance that a photon will land in a particular 1mm2 area decreases the farther you are from the source (ie the longer you wait after the light is emitted). - But you can't determine which direction a particular photon traveled without detecting it, and detecting it means that it is no longer traveling in that direction.
we are already assuming a direction of time when we define an object to be at rest
Is there an infinite array of directions of light?
..an object in reference to itself travels only through time.....
Assuming light has a direction, an object in reference to itself travels only through time in a certain direction.
Assuming light has a direction
an object in reference to itself ...
travels only through time in a certain direction.
In the co-ordinates of that rest frame the object is only travelling through time.
If an object travels away from the object at rest, then according to the object at rest, it will have a spatial component to its direction.
can we leave out QM, if possible.
I have seen this explanation that you gave here "people in different frames of reference will measure the direction differently, since there is no universal set of coordinates.".My problem with this is that we are already assuming a direction of time when we define an object to be at rest. And then when another object is moving relative to it, that object can be defined to be at rest too.
Is there an infinite array of directions of light? If so, how can the time dimension be considered only one dimension?
An object at rest displays no direction of time.
It is stationary and unchanging.
- A moving object (in our frame of reference) with no external forces does not display a direction of time: If we assume that time is reversed (including for the observer): At time t=2a, it is at position y=2, and at a subsequent time t=a it is at position y=1 (remember, time is going backwards!). But from the (time-reversed) view of the observer, he still see: At time t=a it is at position y=1, at a later time t=2a, it is at position y=2
In QM/Many Worlds interpretation, the wave function of the universe may have infinite dimensions, (certainly a very large number of dimensions, like 10500).See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert_space
Quotewe are already assuming a direction of time when we define an object to be at restAn object at rest displays no direction of time. It is stationary and unchanging.- A moving object (in our frame of reference) with no external forces displays a progress of time: At time t=a it is at position y=1, at a later time t=2a, it is at position y=2.- A moving object (in our frame of reference) with no external forces does not display a direction of time: If we assume that time is reversed (including for the observer): At time t=2a, it is at position y=2, and at a subsequent time t=a it is at position y=1 (remember, time is going backwards!). But from the (time-reversed) view of the observer, he still see: At time t=a it is at position y=1, at a later time t=2a, it is at position y=2
Hi. Now I'm certain that I'm not following exactly what you see as a problem. @Origin gave one very short and reasonable answer to something that you might have been asking about. @evan_au has given another answer that has possibly shed some light down an alleyway in a very convoluted part of town that I'm really not sure you were asking about.I'd like to just comment on one thing you said in the first post because there's one thing there which might, just might, be what is confusing you:Quote from: Dimensional on 09/12/2022 15:59:39..an object in reference to itself travels only through time..... Which I have understood to mean that any ordinary object (one with some mass) has a rest frame. In the co-ordinates of that rest frame the object is only travelling through time. That's fine, it holds for everything (everything with mass as stated).However you added something at the front of the sentence about light....Quote from: Dimensional on 09/12/2022 15:59:39Assuming light has a direction, an object in reference to itself travels only through time in a certain direction. That's the main thing where the principle does not apply. Light has no mass and must always travel at the speed c in any inertial reference frame. So light has no valid rest frame. Hence, there is no valid frame where you can say it is only travelling through time. I'm not sure if you were thinking that light itself can somehow point the way to the direction of time. It just sounded a Little bit like it. Whatever frame of reference you use, light is never travelling just through time. So a ray of light can go --> that way while an object goes <-- this way and it means nothing more than that the spatial direction that the light was travelling in was opposite to that of the object. You are simply unable to find a valid reference frame where the light was only travelling through time. There you go, a different alleyway illuminated. If none of the replies so far seem to be going to the part of town you were really asking about, then it might be worth starting again and explaining your concerns in more detail.Best Wishes.
Travel is defined as a change in spatial location over time, resulting in it no longer being at the first location, so 'travel through time' is not defined at all.
QuoteIs there an infinite array of directions of light? If so, how can the time dimension be considered only one dimension?There is no limit to the number of orientations one assign to the time dimension. This is the same as saying there is no limit to the number of valid inertial frames. Each frame defines one orientation for that dimension (and the spatial ones too maybe). But no matter which frame you select, only one dimension in it is the time dimension. Only one spatial orientation is the x axis, and so forth, despite the unlimited allowed choices for the orientation of it. If you choose a different orientation for any of these, you've defined a different coordinate system (frame).
I'll concede that the language I used was sloppy.
I don't know how, but I kept accidently putting "light" instead of "time".
You said, "There is no limit to the number of orientations one assign to the time dimension.". I don't understand how this can be. How can there be more that 2 orientations in a single dimension?
For example, we define a rock to be at rest therefore only travelling along the time dimension.
Then there is a particle moving away from it. In a different reference, the particle is at rest.
To make it easy to imagine, let's just have an x and t coordinate. How can they both not have an x component?
Doesn't at least one of them have to have an x component.
Quote from: Halc on 11/12/2022 03:35:53Then there is a particle moving away from it. In a different reference, the particle is at rest.Yes, in that different reference, the time axis is oriented differently in spacetime, not parallel to the one where the rock is stationary.
All this (entire topic) is in the realm of Galilean relativity, physics over 400 years old. None of this touches on what Einstein added last century.
...You pick two events (points in spacetime).... The one unique line through spacetime connecting those two events is now defined... (and that can be your time axis)....
But I thought that there can only be one time axis.
wave function of the universe may have infinite dimensions, (certainly a very large number of dimensions, like 10500).
You have a reference for that?
@evan_au ...has possibly shed some light down an alleyway in a very convoluted part of town that I'm really not sure you were asking about.
an object is aging. Maybe the paint is fading, or the coffee is cooling,... thermodynamics & entropy
Hi.Quote from: Halc on 11/12/2022 03:35:53All this (entire topic) is in the realm of Galilean relativity, physics over 400 years old. None of this touches on what Einstein added last century. Not entirely true. ( @Dimensional , you shouldn't worry about being too far behind the current times ).Newton is generally credited as the first to use the term "spacetime". That's under 400 years ago, say 350 years. His spacetime wasn't at all like the later spacetime of Einstein of course. Also I like the comment @Halc made about choosing the orientation of a time axis...Quote from: Halc on 11/12/2022 03:35:53...You pick two events (points in spacetime).... The one unique line through spacetime connecting those two events is now defined... (and that can be your time axis).... That's (more or less) true but not at all obvious. How long did you take to come up with that? What's more important is just that no-one considered a time axis to be anything like that until Einstein came along with his relativity and spacetime. It was previously always assumed that time was some uniquely defined thing, there was a universal time axis for everything, everywhere.Quote from: Dimensional on 11/12/2022 04:35:57But I thought that there can only be one time axis. Well done @Dimensional , you are right up to where Einstein and his spacetime took over. Let's have two objects and call them "Billy Blue" or "Blue" for short, and "Betty Black" ("Black" for short), this will be better than calling them A and B because they will end up using something that is blue or black. If Blue has some (non-zero) velocity relative to Black in some reference frame, then there is no way you can find a frame where both of them are at rest at the same time. There is a rest frame for Blue, in this frame Blue is at rest but Black would be moving. There is a rest frame for Black, in which Black is at rest but then Blue would be moving. As outlined by @Halc , the time axis isn't always in precisely the same orientation in every reference frame. In the rest frame of Black the time axis is orientated a certain way through spacetime. We going to call this "straight up". There's no point starting with a load of words, you'll want a diagram to visualise this, so here is one: spacetime.jpg (6.76 kB . 257x260 - viewed 1991 times) Look at the black axis, we have a conventional set of axis with the x-axis on the horizontal and the time axis running "straight up". Meanwhile the time axis for the rest frame of Blue is the blue sloping line, it runs at an angle, partly up the old time axis and partly along the old x-axis. This is what we mean by the time axis of another reference frame running in a different direction or having a different orientation. It's not like the whole axis runs along some spatial direction, if you were a person at rest in the Black frame then there is no way you can point in some physical direction and say that is "along the time axis". You can only point things out that are in space. The time axis is "in time" and not in physical space. If someone asks you to point in the direction of time then you might as well point to your watch and make some gestures with your hands and face as if you are playing a game of charades. Now the diagram has just represented space and time on a flat 2-D surface and in that diagram, time has something we can call a direction and think of like a direction in space and it's what I am going to call "straight up". Well to be precise the time axis is "straight up" in the rest frame of Black. Hopefully you can start to see where I'm going with this.... The rest frame of Blue has a very different orientation of the time axis, it's the blue line which runs at a slope instead of being "straight up". Like I said, it's not a real direction in physical space, it just looks like a direction when we represent it on the diagram. If you were a person at rest in frame Blue then you still can't point your hand in the direction of that time axis. The whole concept of "a direction" or orientation of a time axis is just telling you that the time axis in one frame of reference is actually a hybrid or combination of what was the time and space axis in another frame of reference. (The diagram isn't something I made up off the top of my head, it's based on a conventional space-time diagram that's been used for years although it's simplified because I haven't needed to show you what happens to the x-axis for Blue). Now, without worrying too much about the details but just by looking at the diagram... can you see that if Billy Blue has all of his 4-velocity along the blue time axis, then that does not mean that he has all of his 4-velocity along the black axis? Indeed, if something is "moving" (in the sense of having a 4-velocity) only along the blue axis then it is moving only in time when regarded with the blue axis. However, it is moving partly through time but also partly through space when regarded with the black axis. (You can make similar arguments for something moving only along the black time axis, that's only moving through time when regarded with the back axis but is moving partly through space when regarded with the blue time axis). Anyway, this is the sense in which two objects can be "moving" only through time in their own rest frame, without contradicting the idea that they do have some ordinary spatial velocity in the frame of the other. The key really is that the two time axis do not have the same orientation. I hope that helps a bit. Best Wishes.
Minkowski metric ... how can time have multiple/infinite axis and still be one dimension.
Quote from: DimensionMinkowski metric ... how can time have multiple/infinite axis and still be one dimension.Sometimes, when light cones are illustrated near an event horizon, they show that inside the twisted spacetime of a black hole, the space dimension becomes more time-like, leading any object into a one-way trip to the singularity.However, as a corollary of these simplified diagrams (illustrating 4D spacetime as a 3D graph on a 2D screen), it looks like there are now two dimensions of time.Could this be the source of the confusion?