[Petrochemicals (OP)]

There is much pride in Britian about the lack of invasion in recent centuries. The roman empire at the height of its powers invaded the British Isles and then began a long process of decline and fragmentation, I wonder whether Britian benefitted considerably more from this relationship and the maintenance of the Romans "Prize? territory was more than the Empire could sustain. The British isles at the time was a sparsely populated, under developed area  at the north West of Europe with conditions considerably worse than those of Brittany, the Romans built a wall at Scotland and gave Ireland a miss.

[alancalverd]

It's always worth asking why the Romans bothered to invade these cold, wet islands at all. They had a great land army and a coastal border, but little experience of amphibious invasion. And in the event it took them 100 years to establish a base, from Caesar's expedition to Claudius's successful campaign, after which things progressed very rapidly.

I think a clue is in a bronze-age tomb in Wiltshire, where archaeologists found Scandinavian leather, Irish gold, and Indian silk and spices.  As I see it, there was an established trade route along the European coast and through North Africa long before the Romans got their act together. The Phoenicians certainly traded with Cornish tin miners (vital for making bronze) and Celtic-style glass turns up in all sorts of places. The close relationship between west Britain and Brittany survived until WWII, with clear linguistic connections between the Welsh, Breton and Basque languages (and, oddly, Hungarian).

The direct sea route from Britain to Spain is still dangerous, but if the natives are friendly (and they still are) it's relatively easy to cross the English Channel and take the land route through west France. So when the Romans invaded Brittany, it really disgruntled the coastal traders. In de Bello Gallico Caesar grudgingly admits that the Gauls did not submit willingly and indeed seemed particularly keen and able to fight. Hence the long, shallow French coast was not as defensible as they would like, and the "savages" across the water were actually well equipped guerrillas prepared to fight to keep their businesses and families connected.

Thus it made sense to invade England and establish a defensible land border at the narrowest point of the big island. What always amazes me is the accuracy of their maps and intelligence - Hadrian's Wall is perfectly positioned along a geological fault across the thinnest neck of the island, and an astonishing feat of planning, execution and development over subsequent hundreds of years. South of the border, Roman domination was more political than military, achieved by a series of bribes, deals and occasional skirmishes with individual tribes: a true divide and conquer policy that diluted rather than opposed any aggression from the west.

[Petrochemicals (OP)]

South of the border, Roman domination was more political than military, achieved by a series of bribes, deals and occasional skirmishes with individual tribes: a true divide and conquer policy that diluted rather than opposed any aggression from the west

I get the impression the Romans will have increace the living standards and opportunities many many times thus giving a take over by mutual consent, there where battles but I guess there where people who where glad to see the Romans come. I doubt even the roman empire could have mounted a campaign across the channel against a resolute large populace, they couldn't sustain occupation across the Rhine, thus likewise for the celts across the water could not have caused a revolt in Gaul.

I'm sure there where trading links many years ago, recently I read about Europe's earliest complex culture.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_culture

[Bored chemist]

It's always worth asking why the Romans bothered to invade these cold, wet islands at all.

"Because it's there".
Even poor people are worth taxing.
Also, silver, lead salt, iron etc.

[paul cotter]

They took one look at Ireland, decided it was a land of perpetual rain( right now it most certainly is ), not worth the bother, and called it Hibernia, ie land of winter.

[paul cotter]

Prior to the iron age the discovery of tin in Cornwall, as Alancalverd has mentioned, was a game changer. However, I would not buy a house in Cornwall as the place is riddled with disused mine shafts and one could easily disappear down a sinkhole. Off topic, I know.

[alancalverd]

They took one look at Ireland, decided it was a land of perpetual rain( right now it most certainly is ), not worth the bother, and called it Hibernia, ie land of winter.

Possibly, but the Irish Sea is a bigger challenge than the English Channel (you can't see across it from anywhere south of Scotland, and the magnetic compass hadn't reached Europe) and the west coast of England and Wales was either defensible (cliffs and rocks) or populated by folk whose loyalty could be bought, so it seemed a reasonable boundary to an empire with plenty of infantry but little in the way of a navy.

[Bored chemist]

you can't see across it from anywhere south of Scotland

Really?
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/amazing-north-wales-views-ireland-11654334
https://www.historic-cornwall.org.uk/can-you-see-ireland-from-cornwall/
https://www.anglezarke.net/can-you-see-the-republic-of-ireland-from-england/

Even if they didn't see it, they knew it was there.

Incidentally...
Did Britain bring down the roman empire?
No.

[alancalverd]

The distance to the horizon, in miles, is about 1.22√h where h is your eye height in feet.

So technically, yes, I have seen the Irish coast "from" Cornwall, but I was about 10,000 ft above Bodmin at the time.

Standing on a Pembrokeshire beach, your horizon  is about 3 miles away. If it isn't raining or snowing you might indeed catch a glimpse of Mullaghcleevaun from the top of Yr Wyddfa, but could you tell anyone?

I think the Romans just gave up the battle against Celtic languages and went home. On one side of the sea, it was all consonants, and on the other, they didn't pronounce most of the letters, yet these people were cousins! Years later, England was allegedly defended by an advertisement on the Dover cliffs: "Ovaltine - pronounced success!"

[paul cotter]

On a clear day one can see the coast of Wales from the hill of Howth which is about 500feet in height, just to the north of Dublin.

[Bored chemist]

, I have seen the Irish coast "from" Cornwall, but I was about 10,000 ft above Bodmin at the time.

It doesn't matter how high you were, does it?
Ireland can be seen from England.

[alancalverd]

It doesn't matter how high you were, does it?

I never considered you to be a flat-earther.

http://www.totally-cuckoo.com/distance_visible_to_the_horizon.htm

[Petrochemicals (OP)]

It doesn't matter how high you were, does it?

I never considered you to be a flat-earther.

http://www.totally-cuckoo.com/distance_visible_to_the_horizon.htm

It's 26 miles from Dover to Calais, Dover cliffs are maximum 350 ft height.


calais-cliffs-e1538558616100.jpg (135.79 kB . 800x387 - viewed 426 times)

I think they are incorrect. They may be higher that the beach though and I hay be wrong.

[alancalverd]

That pretty much concurs with the horizon table, particularly at low tide.

Hartland - Waterford is about 140  miles, Whitehaven - Downpatrick 88 miles, neither visible from ground level.

In a small plane we usually route Strumble- Rosslare or Holyhead - Dublin , about 60 miles and just visible from  2000 ft,  but the departure points aren't  in England.

[Bored chemist]

It doesn't matter how high you were, does it?

I never considered you to be a flat-earther.

http://www.totally-cuckoo.com/distance_visible_to_the_horizon.htm

Even if you are at the bottom of a mine, Ireland can still be seen from England- just not by you.
The fact that you saw it from 1000 feet is irrelevant, isn't it?

[Bored chemist]

That pretty much concurs with the horizon table, particularly at low tide.

Does the table take refraction into account?

[alancalverd]

Even if you are at the bottom of a mine, Ireland can still be seen from England- just not by you.

Nor by any Roman colonist.

So technically, yes, but....

[Bored chemist]

Nor by any Roman colonist.

Maybe the odd ghost of a Roman.

[Petrochemicals (OP)]

That pretty much concurs with the horizon table, particularly at low tide.

Hartland - Waterford is about 140  miles, Whitehaven - Downpatrick 88 miles, neither visible from ground level.

In a small plane we usually route Strumble- Rosslare or Holyhead - Dublin , about 60 miles and just visible from  2000 ft,  but the departure points aren't  in England.

It's probably down hill.

[alancalverd]

Of course! Light travels faster downhill, so the Irish can see me coming before I see them on the ground. All that wartime stuff about Chain Home Radar was public disinformation: it really was the Royal Observer Corps on a diet of carrots!