[acsinuk (OP)]

The problem is global warming caused by population expansion; messing about with reducing engine emission's is off the point.

So, the UN is mostly responsible for the population expansion and resulting global warming by sending free medicine and food to refugee camps thus reducing child mortality and stopping farming so the recipients can never become a self-sufficient nation.

But, to stop the bloodshed in Gaza we must understand that Gaza is a refugee city and its inhabitants should be acknowledged as such. Those that cannot live peacefully with Israel may need to be exiled to a new refugee camp possibly in Western Sahara but at least 2,000 miles from the Israel border to avoid a catastrophic situation developing further. 

 

[Petrochemicals]

The problem is global warming caused by population expansion; messing about with reducing engine emission's is off the point.

China is increasing it's CO2 emmissions yet its population is falling. Even if we scrubbed the lowest half of the population in terms of gdp it would barely make a dent in the worlds CO2. Africa south america and Asia excluding China have CO2 emmissions that are probably absorbed by their land mass and share of the oceans. Chinea Europe and north america generate over 2/3 of global emmissions but have less than 1/3 the populace.

[Bored chemist]

The problem is global warming caused by population expansion; messing about with reducing engine emission's is off the point.

So, the UN is mostly responsible for the population expansion and resulting global warming by sending free medicine and food to refugee camps thus reducing child mortality and stopping farming so the recipients can never become a self-sufficient nation.

But, to stop the bloodshed in Gaza we must understand that Gaza is a refugee city and its inhabitants should be acknowledged as such. Those that cannot live peacefully with Israel may need to be exiled to a new refugee camp possibly in Western Sahara but at least 2,000 miles from the Israel border to avoid a catastrophic situation developing further. 

 

There are about 8 billion people in the world, of whom about 2 million live in Gaza (and, realistically, that population is currently falling fast).
So that bit of your post is off topic.
Maybe a mod will be kind enough to move it to a separate thread.

[acsinuk (OP)]

 
Everyone here in Doha wants the war in Gaza stopped but do not know how this can be achieved.

 A white flag surrender, armistice or Hamas capitulation which will lead to the arrest of all anti-Israel supporters and their imprisonment to face wartime crimes or mostly into voluntary exile into a UN refugee camp at least 2000 miles away from Israel in say Western Sahara.  We need to stop the bloodshed and make Gaza part of Israel or part of Egypt ? It can no longer remain a separate state.

[Bored chemist]

Everyone here in Doha

According to your profile, you are in Guildford.
But the real question is why does it matter where you are?

capitulation which will lead to the arrest of all

Why do you think it will lead to that?
In particular, why do you think it will lead to my arrest?

We need to stop the bloodshed

Which side is killing the largest number of people?
Wouldn't it be better if they stopped shedding people's blood?

make Gaza part of Israel

Why that way round?
Why not leave Palestine alone and make Israel part of it?

[alancalverd]

Until people stop imagining that they "belong" to a tribe, that priests and politicians have anyone's interest at heart than their own,  that they have any right to live anywhere other than where they were born, or that the actual combatants benefit from fighting, there will be wars.

Unfortunately homo sapiens seems to become more stupid and gullible with every generation, and thanks to the efforts of terrorists and air forces, the casualties of modern warfare are mostly civilians with no interest in the casus belli or the outcome.

The war in Gaza will continue until Hamas surrenders or is eradicated. But some other scum will take their place and it will all start again, and there will be collateral casualties, for as long as religion and politics survive.

[Petrochemicals]

Until people stop imagining that they "belong" to a tribe, that priests and politicians have anyone's interest at heart than their own,  that they have any right to live anywhere other than where they were born, or that the actual combatants benefit from fighting, there will be wars.

I was born on earth Alan, but my dream is to live on the moon.

it I find Israel to be a bit like an ongoing saga of who started it, frankly it isn't news it's just the status quo, it certainly isn't news for blanket coverage for over 1 month. I find the lack of coverage of Netenyahu and the rejection of his government by many Israelis and the likewise rejection of hamas by Gazans a bit of a problem when news programmes ask us to take them seriously.

 There are plenty of other atrocities going on, Burma, Sudan and Isis in Africa, Syria, other political flash points such as Venezuela and the surrounding area, the looting of African recources, problems with Russia throughout conflict areas and Chinese corporate control in other countries, yet we hear nothing of this.

[alancalverd]

Topol said in a TV program about 50 years ago:

"If you open an atlas, Israel is about the size of Yorkshire. If you open a newspaper, it's bigger than Russia."

[alancalverd]

I was born on earth Alan, but my dream is to live on the moon.

A dream does not confer a right.

[Petrochemicals]

I was born on earth Alan, but my dream is to live on the moon.

A dream does not confer a right.

Noooooooooooooooo!

[alancalverd]

We need to stop the bloodshed

Who we? How?
The stated objective of Hamas is to destroy Israel by killing Jews.
The current objective of the IDF is to destroy Hamas, who are dug in among civilians and under hospitals.
State what resources are available to "us" and how you would deploy them  to achieve your objective.

[acsinuk (OP)]

Israel has won the war in Gaza and Hamas need to surrender immediately.to protect their women and children.
We know from the protests in Tel Aviv that many Israelites are sympathetic towards other Arabic tribes who also are Abrahams descendants and would be willing to share Israel with them.
In fact, if the non violent Gaza and West bank residents individually each signed a peace declaration in return for full Israel citizenship, then they could vote in the next general election and who knows what could be achieved as they would no longer be second class citizens.
Those people that did not apply for citizenship would automatically become refugees and need to be exiled to a distant  UN refugee camp, as they cannot stay inside Israel unless they obtain a valid visa.
 

[Bored chemist]

Israel has won the war in Gaza and Hamas need to surrender immediately.to protect their women and children.
Or
Hamas has won the war in Gaza and Israel need to surrender immediately.to protect their women and children.
It's impossible to tell.

"Those people that did not apply for citizenship would automatically become refugees"
A plan to deliberately create refugees is a bad plan, isn't it?

Here's a radical idea for you.
Israel withdraws from the land which they are occupying illegally and lets the Palestinian people live in their own land.
Those people can choose their own government.
Without the persecution, the people of Palestine will no longer feel any need to support terrorists like Hamas.

What do you see as the problem with that?



On a tangentially related note, when (post 9/11) the Americans decided to bomb Afghanistan, I thought it was a foolish move.
I figured it would be better if they dropped food.

Partly because food is cheaper than laser guided high explosives.
But mainly because it would have utterly undermined the Taliban claim that "The West Hates us and we are at war with them".

In doing so, it would have robbed the terrorists of their support.

I realise it's far too late but what do you think of that plan?

[alancalverd]

Hamas has won the war in Gaza and Israel need to surrender immediately.to protect their women and children.

That is a nonsequitur. The stated objective of Hamas is to destroy Israel. Hamas is a club, not a state, and doesn't claim or pretend  to protect anyone. Indeed hiding under "protected" structures like schools and hospitals is the very opposite of civilian protection.

Asymmetric conflict is a relatively modern phenomenon (despite a few improbable biblical accounts: Joshua, Gideon...) with particular problems, e.g. of knowing who has won. Counterinsurgency is often advertised as "surgical" but if it isn't followed up with debridement, antibiotics and remedial therapy, the infection is likely to recur.

[alancalverd]

In doing so, it would have robbed the terrorists of their support.

It must be remembered that the USA supplied weapons and intelligence to the Taliban when they were called Mujahadeen.   

[Bored chemist]

In doing so, it would have robbed the terrorists of their support.

It must be remembered that the USA supplied weapons and intelligence to the Taliban when they were called Mujahadeen.   

True, but that was decades ago and it looks like both sides forgot about it.
The guys fighting the USSR in 1980 were probably not the guys fighting  in 2001.


But, when I said their support, I meant their local support from the folks living in Afghanistan.
Those people would be swayed by food better than bombs.

[alancalverd]

The guys fighting the USSR in 1980 were probably not the guys fighting  in 2001.

And the scum invading Israel in 2023 are not those who chose to leave in 1946.

This discussion, though quite irrelevant to the question, does highlight a very modern problem. War is generally defined as a state of armed conflict between nations or between defined groups within a nation. This was mostly the case up to and including Vietnam.  Al Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS, Hezbollah and now Hamas are not nations but private clubs run for the benefit of perverts and parasites, who declare war on nation states but do not have a defined physical center, boundary, or even a uniform.  The winner of a war used to be defined as whoever has effective control of the other's capital and civil activity (at its simplest: replacing or controlling the police and civil service with infantry) at which point a formal surrender of power should end the fight. This criterion clearly can't be applied in the case of a club that has no capital and isn't in position to cede power. Hence the need for a deep purge, and if the bad boys don't have a uniform, everyone is a potential combatant or spy.

[Petrochemicals]

True, but that was decades ago and it looks like both sides forgot about it.
The guys fighting the USSR in 1980 were probably not the guys fighting  in 2001

Very true, that is the trouble. Most of the mujahadeen quite liked the USA, but they where not the Islamic finatics, similarly the Iranians in the west are not the nutters running Iran.

Afghanistan was a missed opportunity after the ussr withdrawal. It is quite easy to arm a group of willing combatants who you favour against a group who you do not, that is effectivley what is happening in the Ukraine and is what happened in Israel, conversely if they are unwilling you get Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan 2021.

[Petrochemicals]

Those people that did not apply for citizenship would automatically become refugees and need to be exiled to a distant  UN refugee camp, as they cannot stay inside Israel unless they obtain a valid visa.
 

You are aware that is illegal under international law?

[acsinuk (OP)]

Now we have a temporary cease fire what is required is for all Hamas fighters like the al Qassam brigade with their families and supporters to hand themselves over to the UN and declare themselves as refugees for exile to a very distant refugee camp by UN.
Those peaceful people who stay on will become citizens of the new Israel/Palestine nation and be given citizenship of the new nation of Israel with full voting rights in the upcoming Israel elections.