[Kryptid]

Well, in electronics if your model stuck at a single point, and you can't find a bypass, then you have to start your model from zero.

(1) We are talking about the methodology of science, not designing electronics,
(2) We don't know if the quasar really is that hot or not, and
(3) Even if it is that hot, we may be able to find a bypass with some tweaks to the model. Only time will tell.

As we don't afraid, why do we insist to reject this observation?

We aren't. We just aren't certain of it yet. In science, when you get extraordinary results, you need to confirm them. That's why people weren't automatically accepting the claim that LK99 was a room temperature superconductor. They went and tried to replicate the findings. That's how science is supposed to work.

Please be aware that it is stated that they may find areas that are even hotter than quasar 3C273:

So, if we discuss about accuracy or reliability it might be lower temp but also higher temp.

I underlined the important words in those sentences.

It also appears that the matter can be better investigated in the near future: https://www.world-today-news.com/the-hottest-place-in-the-universe-quasar-3c273-and-its-extreme-temperature/

In the future, scientists will have a future X-ray observatory. This is called the X-ray Imaging and Spectroscopy Mission (XRISM).

Both will help scientists measure high-temperature gases in space more accurately. When this tool is developed, the exact temperature of quasar 3C273 will probably be known.

?I think it?s fair to say that right now, the tools we have for understanding the temperature of the material around supermassive black holes are limited but will also be expanding rapidly,? Palumbo concluded.

Since XRISM launched literally a few days ago, it seems that we will just have to watch and wait to see if the initial high temperature measurements are confirmed or not.

[Bored chemist]

its brightness temperature

Not a real temperature.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

(1) We are talking about the methodology of science, not designing electronics,
(2) We don't know if the quasar really is that hot or not, and
(3) Even if it is that hot, we may be able to find a bypass with some tweaks to the model. Only time will tell.
...
Since XRISM launched literally a few days ago, it seems that we will just have to watch and wait to see if the initial high temperature measurements are confirmed or not.

Thanks for the support.
Your message is clear.

In science, when you get extraordinary results, you need to confirm them. That's why people weren't automatically accepting the claim that LK99 was a room temperature superconductor. They went and tried to replicate the findings. That's how science is supposed to work.

What do we really see?
I have just found an update article about that specific quasar dated November 22, 2022
https://news.mit.edu/2022/international-team-observes-innermost-structure-quasar-jet-1122
"Three views of the 3C 273 jet from the deepest to farthest ends. At left is the deepest look yet into the plasma jet of the quasar. The jet extends hundreds of thousands of light-years beyond the host galaxy.
Active supermassive black holes emit narrow, incredibly powerful jets of plasma that escape at nearly the speed of light.
This narrowing part of the jet continues incredibly far, well beyond the area where the black hole's gravity rules."

Let's summarize:
1. Based on 2016 observation - The temp of the quasar is 10^13K. However, we need further investigation to confirm that observation.
2. Based on 2022 observation - incredibly powerful jets of plasma escapes at nearly the speed of light and extends hundreds of thousands of light-years beyond the host galaxy.

I hope that at least we all accept this updated observation from 2022.

What kind of energy can set that incredibly powerful jets of plasma (that might be very hot)?
Can we agree that it is not gravity?

[Origin]

2. Based on 2022 observation - incredibly powerful jets of plasma escapes at nearly the speed of light and extends hundreds of thousands of light-years beyond the host galaxy.

I hope that at least we all accept this updated observation from 2022.

Yes, we've known that for quite a while.

What kind of energy can set that incredibly powerful jets of plasma (that might be very hot)?
Can we agree that it is not gravity?

No.  It is probably due to the gravity and the magnetic field of the black hole.

[Kryptid]

We are well aware that quasars have powerful beams and that they are very hot.

[Bored chemist]

1. Based on 2016 observation - The temp of the quasar is 10^13K.

No

Based on 2016 observation - The  brightness temperature of the quasar is 10^13K


Do you know that an LED lamp with a colour temperature of 5000K is not actually at 5000K?

Well why on earth do you think that a quasar with a brightness temperature of 10^13K must be at 10^13K?

[Dave Lev (OP)]

1. Based on 2016 observation - The temp of the quasar is 10^13K.

No
Based on 2016 observation - The  brightness temperature of the quasar is 10^13K
Do you know that an LED lamp with a colour temperature of 5000K is not actually at 5000K?
Well why on earth do you think that a quasar with a brightness temperature of 10^13K must be at 10^13K?

Is it?

In the following article it is stated that:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/space/deep-space/a20351/quasar-temperature/
"the latest measurements made possible by Spektr-R show that some mysterious mechanism brings the effective temperature at the core of the quasar to a seemingly impossible range from 20 to 40 trillion degrees?at least 10 times above the theoretical ceiling. And this particular quasar may not even be the most intense."

What is the meaning of effective temperature?
Is it the brightness temperature or the actually temperature?
Do you confirm that 20 trillion degrees means 2 * 10^13K?
In any case, I fully accept the message from Kryptid that further verification must be done in order to finely confirm that effective temperature.

We are well aware that quasars have powerful beams and that they are very hot.

If we are well aware, why it has been a long-standing mystery?
https://www.nao.ac.jp/en/news/science/2022/20221122-mizusawa.html
"Quasars emit narrow, collimated jets of material at nearly the speed of light. But how and where quasar jets are collimated has been a long-standing mystery."
Why they need clue for unravelling the inner workings of jets?
"The results show that the structure of the jet is similar to jets launched from nearby galaxies with a low luminosity active nucleus. This would indicate that the collimation of the jet is independent of the activity level in the host galaxy, providing an important clue to unravelling the inner workings of jets."
So, do you confirm that they just don't know how it really works?

Quote from: Dave Lev on Yesterday at 20:26:59
What kind of energy can set that incredibly powerful jets of plasma (that might be very hot)?
Can we agree that it is not gravity?

No.  It is probably due to the gravity and the magnetic field of the black hole.

Why do you insist on gravity while the jet continues well beyond the area where the black hole's gravity dominates?
"The team found that the jet flowing from the quasar narrows down over a very long distance. This narrowing part of the jet continues incredibly far, well beyond the area where the black hole's gravity dominates. "
What do you mean by:

and the magnetic field of the black hole.

Do you think that the quasar generates its own magnetic fields?
Any Idea how that quasar' magnetic fields is created?
Could it be that your message about the quasar' magnetic field would help to solve the long-standing mystery and for unravelling the inner workings of jets?

[Bored chemist]

What is the meaning of effective temperature?
Is it the brightness temperature or the actually temperature?

The scientists did not send their paper to Popular mechanics for publication.
Pop Sci does not have access to any information apart from what they read in the scientific paper and it only talks about a brightness temperature- because that's the only thing they measured.

So the "temperature" cited in PopSci must be the brightness temperature.

Why did you not realise that?

[Bored chemist]

If we are well aware, why it has been a long-standing mystery?

Because knowing that something happens is not the same as knowing why it happens.

That's not an issue of science; it's a problem with your reading comprehension.

[Bored chemist]

Is it?

You need to add some sort of context to that .
As it stands, it is meaningless.

[Zer0]

@OP

Why go far off till Quasars...

Have you Not thought about the
 ' Temp Differences ' in the Core vs Outer areas of our Closest Star.

We already have those Measurements,
So Any Thoughts?

[Origin]

Why do you insist on gravity while the jet continues well beyond the area where the black hole's gravity dominates?

Because jets are associated with a massive object and in general the largest jets come from most massive objects.

Do you think that the quasar generates its own magnetic fields?
Any Idea how that quasar' magnetic fields is created?
Could it be that your message about the quasar' magnetic field would help to solve the long-standing mystery and for unravelling the inner workings of jets?

The magnetic field comes from the blackhole and the associate accretion disk.

[Dave Lev (OP)]

If we are well aware, why it has been a long-standing mystery?

Because knowing that something happens is not the same as knowing why it happens.

Do you confirm that the science community clearly know the full activity of the quasar, but unfortunately they just don't know why it happens?
If so, why those scientists are not seeking for help as the science did in 1859?

Why do you insist on gravity while the jet continues well beyond the area where the black hole's gravity dominates?

Because jets are associated with a massive object and in general the largest jets come from most massive objects.

Why the jet is always ejected in the direction of the quasar' poles?
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Estructura-de-un-AGN-Fuente-CM-Urry-and-P-Padovani_fig52_305228473
Do you agree that gravity by itself should work equally in any direction?
So, why it is always in the direction of the quasar magnetic poles and up to several hundred thousand of LY away?
Why we can't agree that the main force that can direct this narrow jet symmetrically into the quasar poles at almost the speed of light (and also well beyond the area where the black hole's gravity dominates) is magnetic force (and only magnetic force)?

Do you think that the quasar generates its own magnetic fields?
Any Idea how quasar' magnetic fields is created?

The magnetic field comes from the blackhole and the associate accretion disk.

Do you agree that the mass of the Quasar/SMBH is millions or even trillions times bigger than the total mass in the accretion disc?
As you claim that the magnetic field comes from the blackhole and the associate accretion disk, then which one should generate much more effective Magnetic fields?
Is the SMBH itself or is it the associate accretion disk?

[Kryptid]

We have entered supermassive black hole and magnetic field territory. I fear that we may stray dangerously close to locked thread material...

[Dave Lev (OP)]

We have entered supermassive black hole and magnetic field territory. I fear that we may stray dangerously close to locked thread material...

Did I say something that contradicts any science law?
You have stated that the science is not afraid to find that there is a problem in the current theories

Quote from: Dave Lev on 07/09/2023 17:46:25
Are they afraid to find that there is a problem in their current theories??
No.

So, why do you insist to stop the discussion on real science while I didn't say anything that contradicts the science law?

[Kryptid]

Did I say something that contradicts any science law?

Not yet, but I'm concerned that you will. I shall watch and wait.

[Bored chemist]

Do you confirm that the science community clearly know the full activity of the quasar,

Obviously not; they are still doing experiments.
Why do you keep asking questions like that?

If so, why those scientists are not seeking for help

They do.
How do you think their work gets funded.
Again, why do you keep asking questions that have obvious answers?

[Bored chemist]

So, why do you insist to stop the discussion on real science

You are not in a position to discuss real science.
You don't understand it.
You proved that here
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=86504.msg712511#msg712511

[Dave Lev (OP)]

Did I say something that contradicts any science law?

Not yet, but I'm concerned that you will. I shall watch and wait.

Please don't be concerned.
I really do not want to waste my time or your time.
After significant investment in astronomy, I do believe that it is possible to explain this quasar activity by two main forces - EM & Gravity without any violation to any science law.
I even do not ask you to give me the same chance that you give to several other hypothetical theories that had been offered by the science community
I only ask to verify my explanation based on real science laws and not based on any current hypothetical ideas/theories.
If you see any contradiction - please give me a chance to explain it.

I would mostly appreciate to get answers for my following questions:

Why the jet is always ejected from the direction of the quasar' poles?
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Estructura-de-un-AGN-Fuente-CM-Urry-and-P-Padovani_fig52_305228473
Do you agree that gravity by itself should work equally in any direction?
So, why it is always in the direction of the quasar magnetic poles and up to several hundred thousand of LY away?
Why we can't agree that the main force that can direct this narrow jet symmetrically into the quasar poles at almost the speed of light (and also well beyond the area where the black hole's gravity dominates) is magnetic force (and only magnetic force)?

Do you agree that the mass of the Quasar/SMBH is millions or even trillions times bigger than the total mass in the accretion disc?
As you claim that the magnetic field comes from the blackhole and the associate accretion disk, then which one should generate much more effective Magnetic fields?
Is the SMBH itself or is it the associate accretion disk?

[Origin]

Do you agree that the mass of the Quasar/SMBH is millions or even trillions times bigger than the total mass in the accretion disc?

Of course the mass of the black hole is larger than the mass of the accretion disk.

As you claim that the magnetic field comes from the blackhole and the associate accretion disk, then which one should generate much more effective Magnetic fields?

The accretion disk is the source of the magnetic field.

Is the SMBH itself or is it the associate accretion disk?

Since this is exactly the same question as the previous question it will have the same answer - the accretion disk.