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  4. How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
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How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?

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Offline alancalverd

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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #320 on: 08/05/2024 17:45:37 »
Precisely my point. He can't tell B's time simply by looking at his own clock: he has to make a lot of assumptions. That's relativity.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #321 on: 09/05/2024 10:35:41 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/05/2024 17:45:37
Precisely my point. He can't tell B's time simply by looking at his own clock: he has to make a lot of assumptions. That's relativity.
He can verify his assumptions by asking an external inertial observer, whether or not B moved according to the planned sequence.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #322 on: 09/05/2024 10:49:36 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/05/2024 07:31:39
Quote from: Halc on 02/05/2024 17:05:36
You missed the fact that the Earth clock is inertial between the two events of the 'jump' and the traveling clock is not, so its worldline is half the temporal length that it would have had had it been inertial between its two events.
Where does the number "half" come from?
In the explanation by Henry's Minutephysics and Mahesh' Floatinghead Physics, acceleration of the observed clocks don't cause any time jump. Time jumps only occur when the observer is looking at far away clock while changing velocity.
We know we are having a knowledge gap when we have a quantitative answer without knowing where it comes from.
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #323 on: 10/05/2024 20:31:52 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/05/2024 10:35:41
He can verify his assumptions by asking an external inertial observer,
Which is not "simply by looking at his own clock". Try reading the question before questioning the answer.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #324 on: 15/05/2024 16:31:03 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 08/05/2024 17:45:37
Precisely my point. He can't tell B's time simply by looking at his own clock: he has to make a lot of assumptions. That's relativity.
Quote from: alancalverd on 10/05/2024 20:31:52
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/05/2024 10:35:41
He can verify his assumptions by asking an external inertial observer,
Which is not "simply by looking at his own clock". Try reading the question before questioning the answer.
How does it (looking only at his own clock) help solving the twin paradox, which is the main objective of this thread?
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Offline alancalverd

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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #325 on: 16/05/2024 09:42:08 »
If A cannot tell the time on B's clock by looking at his own, he has no reason to assume that they are synchronised. Thus there is no paradox.

To repeat a mantra for the umpteenth time:
You can derive a nonrelativistic result from a relativistic model by putting v << c.
You can't derive a relativistic result from a nonrelativistic model.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #326 on: 16/05/2024 15:11:51 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/05/2024 09:42:08
If A cannot tell the time on B's clock by looking at his own, he has no reason to assume that they are synchronised. Thus there is no paradox.

To repeat a mantra for the umpteenth time:
You can derive a nonrelativistic result from a relativistic model by putting v << c.
You can't derive a relativistic result from a nonrelativistic model.
So, what is the resolution of the paradox? Will they have different age at reunion? Which one is older?
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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #327 on: 16/05/2024 18:00:15 »
There is no paradox, so no resolution is required. The time difference has been measured and consists with the calculated value.
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Offline hamdani yusuf (OP)

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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #328 on: 18/05/2024 01:18:14 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 16/05/2024 18:00:15
There is no paradox, so no resolution is required. The time difference has been measured and consists with the calculated value.
What's your calculation result?
Is the earth bound twin always the older?
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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #329 on: 18/05/2024 12:39:02 »
I recommend the Wikipedia entry for the Hafele-Keating experiment, which explains the corrections required for an earth-based observer.
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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #330 on: 18/05/2024 13:12:53 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 18/05/2024 12:39:02
I recommend the Wikipedia entry for the Hafele-Keating experiment, which explains the corrections required for an earth-based observer.
Quote
The Hafele?Keating experiment was a test of the theory of relativity. In 1971,[1] Joseph C. Hafele, a physicist, and Richard E. Keating, an astronomer, took four caesium-beam atomic clocks aboard commercial airliners. They flew twice around the world, first eastward, then westward, and compared the clocks in motion to stationary clocks at the United States Naval Observatory. When reunited, the three sets of clocks were found to disagree with one another, and their differences were consistent with the predictions of special and general relativity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafele%E2%80%93Keating_experiment
Do you think solution of twin paradox requires general relativity?
Is special relativity inadequate for this situation?
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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #331 on: 19/05/2024 18:34:06 »
There is no paradox.

Relativity is the best description we have of how things work, and when v << c, relativistic mechanics simplifies to include such notions as simultaneity and synchronism, which are adequate for many everyday purposes but cannot be considered complete.
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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #332 on: 20/05/2024 03:20:56 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 19/05/2024 18:34:06
There is no paradox.

Relativity is the best description we have of how things work, and when v << c, relativistic mechanics simplifies to include such notions as simultaneity and synchronism, which are adequate for many everyday purposes but cannot be considered complete.
Which relativity?
Even the same theory can be interpreted differently.

Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 18/05/2024 13:12:53
Do you think solution of twin paradox requires general relativity?
Is special relativity inadequate for this situation?
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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #333 on: 20/05/2024 17:16:31 »
Wikipedia summarises it neatly:
Quote
Time dilation is the difference in elapsed time as measured by two clocks, either because of a relative velocity between them (special relativity), or a difference in gravitational potential between their locations (general relativity).

If there is no relative velocity or gravitational potential difference, the time dilation component degenerates to zero and we can assume synchronicity, i.e. the time measured by B's clock will be exactly the same as A's. This is the approximation that underlies classical (nonrelativistic) mechanics.

Where's the paradox?
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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #334 on: 21/05/2024 07:49:29 »
Quote from: alancalverd on 20/05/2024 17:16:31
Where's the paradox?
Quote
In physics, the twin paradox is a thought experiment in special relativity involving identical twins, one of whom makes a journey into space in a high-speed rocket and returns home to find that the twin who remained on Earth has aged more. This result appears puzzling because each twin sees the other twin as moving, and so, as a consequence of an incorrect[1][2] and naive[3][4] application of time dilation and the principle of relativity, each should paradoxically find the other to have aged less. However, this scenario can be resolved within the standard framework of special relativity: the travelling twin's trajectory involves two different inertial frames, one for the outbound journey and one for the inbound journey.[5] Another way of looking at it is to realize the travelling twin is undergoing acceleration, which makes them a non-inertial observer. In both views there is no symmetry between the spacetime paths of the twins. Therefore, the twin paradox is not actually a paradox in the sense of a logical contradiction. There is still debate as to the resolution of the twin paradox.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox
Should we take acceleration into the equation?
« Last Edit: 21/05/2024 07:54:18 by hamdani yusuf »
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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #335 on: 21/05/2024 08:08:49 »
It's inevitable. We've been there and explained it several pages ago.

Thanks to relativistic time dilation, you can't assume clocks to be synchronised unless they are mutually stationary and close together (no gravitational potential difference).

Therefore at least one clock then needs to accelerate to produce v > 0.   
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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #336 on: 21/05/2024 09:29:17 »
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 09/05/2024 10:49:36
Quote from: hamdani yusuf on 03/05/2024 07:31:39
Quote from: Halc on 02/05/2024 17:05:36
You missed the fact that the Earth clock is inertial between the two events of the 'jump' and the traveling clock is not, so its worldline is half the temporal length that it would have had had it been inertial between its two events.
Where does the number "half" come from?
In the explanation by Henry's Minutephysics and Mahesh' Floatinghead Physics, acceleration of the observed clocks don't cause any time jump. Time jumps only occur when the observer is looking at far away clock while changing velocity.
We know we are having a knowledge gap when we have a quantitative answer without knowing where it comes from.
Why the symmetrically travelling twin's clock is only observed to time jump by half amount than earth's clock, from the perspective of the first travelling twin?
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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #337 on: 10/06/2024 05:47:45 »
Every now and then I checked if there's someone upload a reasonable effort to explain about the twin paradox worth sharing. I think this one will do.

Twin Paradox is NOT a Paradox: An Explanation that Makes Sense
Quote
Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity is confusing. It?s even harder to grasp when all the explanations disagree about how to interpret it. And to top it all off, the explanations all use a PARADOX.

I decided I needed to step in and give one more explanation to destroy the paradox once and for all. Did I succeed? Let me know in the comments what I should clarify in my next video.

Chapters:
00:00 - Intro
00:48 - The Story
03:03 - The Paradox
04:56 - The Problem
07:59 - Breaking the Symmetry
10:15 - Constructed Inertial Frames
12:27 - Video Evidence
15:21 - There is No Paradox
17:33 - Connecting the Dots

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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #338 on: 15/12/2024 09:51:19 »

Perhaps I can show an example to determine whether or not acceleration can explain the asymmetrical effects of time dilation in twin paradox. Instead of going back and forth on a single straight line, we make both twins to go through a rectangular route.
Imagine that the first twin takes the route of ABCDA, while the second twin takes the route of ADCDA.
By symmetry, both twins must arrive at C with the same age. But the second twin experiences higher acceleration to reverse direction. So in the journey between C and D they can already determine if they age differently because of their acceleration.
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Re: How does Hamdani explain the twins paradox?
« Reply #339 on: 15/12/2024 12:06:08 »
 No. Both twins experience one each of accelerations north-south, west-east, south-north, and east-west. Just in a different order.
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