[varsigma (OP)]

As an anthropologist of no particular denomination, who was raised as an Anglophile so that a Western idiom applies (thanks Mum, Dad), I think I have always been interested in how we learn.

Learn anything. Learn how to solve a problem, learn how to learn a new language. We're supposed to learn lots of things at school, but why is the process itself hardly ever part of any Western curriculum?

A remark by a mathematics lecturer is still kind of ringing in my ears. I think it was meant in an apologetic sense, like ok it's a difficult thing to understand, abstracting or abstractions can be hard for some people.

But is that setting people up, who may have that kind of problem where others don't? Perhaps it was also something of a warning sign--bring a metal detector, there are minefields ahead.

I think I might be able to unpack, at least for myself, what it is and how I do it. So does that become part of a new curriculum if I am a teacher and decide it is? I think Einstein may have had some of this, part of the reason it took him 10 years to formulate what he was thinking was the state of university curricula in Europe.

Also I should mention that I've looked at the Eastern paradigm. Today education around the world is based on the Western teacher-classroom model, but can the West lay that claim, or should it?  And the benefits of Eastern meditative practices for students is now like maybe a brain-gym. So I guess what goes around.

Long story short, the process of learning is more open to alternative stuff than it was. And I think the contrast between the two approaches might have something to say about why learning is difficult, and why mathematics is placed at the top by default.

I want to learn to love the smell of equations in the morning. I want to smell something when I read a paper on braided quantum groups. The Kevin Ramsey of categories.

[Eternal Student]

Hi.

Kevin Ramsey is famous as an actor / director but is also a noted professor.   I think there's also a Kevin Ramsey that played American football.   There's a Kevin Ramsey who did something for the UK government,  I think that was important.   Sorry, the Kevin Ramsey comment is way over my head but I'm sure he was great.

I think I might be able to unpack, at least for myself, what it is and how I do it. So does that become part of a new curriculum if I am a teacher and decide it is?

     Depending on which country or establishment you're a teacher in, there just isn't that much time to spare that you can set aside for teaching your own thing.    Most UK government funded schools have a fairly rigid curriculum to follow and just about enough time to do it in.

A remark by a mathematics lecturer is still kind of ringing in my ears. I think it was meant in an apologetic sense, like ok..... abstractions can be hard for some people.....

    There's been quite a lot of research done by educators to try and get people over some of the barriers or problems they seem to have with mathematics.     It is generally recognised that some personal barriers are set up by students when the teacher tells them  "this is hard" or "you may not be able to do this".   So you should always take the approach of saying "we will be able to do this" or "this will click into place and make sense soon"   etc.   

Best Wishes.

[alancalverd]

I want to learn to love the smell of equations in the morning. I want to smell something when I read a paper on braided quantum groups.

The purpose of teaching is to short-circuit the process of learning the hard way.

What distinguishes humans from other animals is that we record anything that is too trivial to remember* so we have a huge amount of "possibly useful" knowledge to pass on to the next generation, an even greater amount of vaguely entertaining nonsense like philosophy and economics, and tons of really dangerous drivel like religion.

The process of learning really needs to begin with deciding what, from this great pile of information and opinion, might be useful or amusing. A national curriculum presents the consensus of potential employers and various parasites as to what they think it would benefit them for you to know, plus just enough intellectual bread and circuses to stop you questioning their authority and thank them for introducing you to art and music.

So how can we inculcate instead a sense of wonder, exploration, and delight in knowing? In my case, it all happened by being taught backwards, or at least being introduced to practical applications at a very early stage in the learning process. The most spectacular was a 5-minute exposition of Bernouilli's Theorem followed by a 30 minute ride in a glider "to see if it actually works". From then on the classroom sessions on aerodynamics, thermodynamics, meteorology.....were unforgettable glimpses of how to make it work better, always backed up by practical demonstrations and a debrief to see if I had understood what we had done and apply the knowledge to a different circumstance.

Many if not most UK universities used to be technical colleges. Given the depressing rates of graduate unemployment and underemployment, I am now advocating that all undergraduates should spend at least the first six months of whatever course they have signed up for, learning a practical trade. At that point I suspect a fair number will opt to become plumbers or whatever and pursue a course that discusses hydraulics and metallurgy, with real enthusiasm, and those who choose to stick with Eng Lit will at least be able to  build decent scenery when they become assistant stage managers or band roadies (BA).

Anyone opting for Theology  or Politics in my new university will have to spend the foundation course working in refugee camps and field hospitals. 

*nobody forgets how to eat, breathe and defecate.

[varsigma (OP)]

Well, I must either be a special case, or I must have learning difficulties. I had a hard time learning from my teachers unless I said nothing, asked questions at the rate of once a week, and made sure I'd done my homework.

I now think part of my difficulty was that I could see what the script was, I understood the game perhaps a bit better than they did. I in fact perceived resentment, they were unhappy about the presence of a boy with what must have seemed to them to be a kind of second sight. An awareness that other students didn't have and were easier to deal with.

I suppose I should have been at a better kind of  high school than the one I went to, which tended to output young men with the right attitude. It was a boys-only school. I was likely the kid with the highest IQ there. I hated being intelligent for a while and  started to wish I was dumb, so I would fit in better.

So these days, having reassured myself several times over that I did get an education. and that I'm still the best teacher I know, I'm still using my brain, my intelligence, to learn stuff I know I don't understand but would like to.

I just know that I'm better at learning by myself, and this is easier if I am all by myself, no other people with distracting, but possibly very interesting facts. Anyone who has tried to tell me anything like, you should be glad you have a high IQ, has no idea what they're saying.

What I've just posted would be plenty of fuel for people I've known, to attack my opinion, of myself. It's too much for them somehow, but it's all true I'm sorry. My official IQ score is a number, and I know it's lower than the real one because I decided to stop doing the test way back then. For some reason.
My Stanford-Binet score was 135. But I have a reasonable idea of how big the gap is. And I'm not telling so nyah nyah.

So. what is intelligence? To me, given my experience, it's a thing parents are proud of but have little idea what to do about. Having an official result, as they must have been convinced at test time, would cement this. We have a smart kid, what the hell do we do with him? I know, let's brag about it so we cause him lots of embarrassment and make him wish he wasn't!

Thanks, Mum, Dad. Hey by the way, are people scared of smart kids? I want to find out, ok? I want revenge for this travesty that just played out, in the name of something vague, formless and totally irrational. Perhaps they both eventually came to an understanding don't mess with smart people if you aren't. Hey, I still loved them, I just had to deal with the intelligence gap all the time. The one they so helpfully uncovered for all to see.

I'm not really bitter, I'm just venting because it was in fact, pathetic. Like people clinging to an idea, of you. It can't change, it has to be a fixed idea, Nailed to a sort of cross-like thing, you know.

[varsigma (OP)]

Continuing with the diatribe, which I now conjecture is a lot like me saying, look if you want me to believe all the problems I was confronted with at the high school I attended were mine, that's ok.

I can deal with quite a few different levels of deluded thinking and although what you present is a challenge I don't need or want, at least I can point to my desire to be at a school I can feel comfortable acting a bit less intelligent in, so thanks for that. But try saying something like that to an adult teacher, or thinking it and trying to stay inscrutable.

So there is a narrative, and every child has to understand it and learn how to deal with it or even support it, make contributions etc. The big problem with narratives is that that's what they are, a story. Reality isn't something that's staring me in the face because of a story. That's insane, isn't it?

But that's what I was sold, by an education system. So were all my classmates. Some of them went on the be successful, some didn't. Mostly they didn't look like young men who knew what they were doing, except living up to expectations. A smart kid questioning the expectations wasn't wanted, there was enough to deal with. Sad.

But I think I've moved on a little. Nowadays I see myself as someone who was more like Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting. His character was of a young man having trouble seeing what the point was, and too intelligent to just believe all the stories. When I first saw the movie I recognised that. I knew what was coming, more or less.

But today I could care less about it all. I navigated the shoals and, I kept my curiosity alive. I went to university where, although the story is still hanging out there, they aren't that stupid. They actually admit it's a story and it's just a kind of coping mechanism, after all.

How about that, huh?

[varsigma (OP)]

Alrighty back to the learning narrative.

I think teachers will agree that, interesting ideas are more fun to learn about, and, not all ideas are interesting but still need to be learned.

How to approach this dichotomy and have a class full of children stay connected?

I'm not a teacher, I'm a former student. But perhaps I can give a few tips about this.

If an idea is interesting, don't try to catch it and put it in a cage. Don't put shackles on an idea and present it as a conquest.
Don't do that.
Approach the idea and see if you notice anything. Don't expect any satisfactory answers, not immediately. Don't expect anything.

Just ask it what it is. You may experience recognition. You might see that you already have answers because you already know something, and you didn't need to go looking for it. You clever bugger.

[Eternal Student]

Hi.

      I've read through your earlier posts and I'm extremely sorry that you've suffered.    I'm also sorry that there's very little a forum like this can do about it.

       I am not a psychologist but it is generally thought to be extremely common and perfectly normal to feel some resentment toward your parents for something.   It's not a good thing if that becomes too extreme and it's usually best if you can get to the point of thinking that they were just human and probably were doing their best.   You seem to be suggesting your parents were overly proud and vocal about their extremely bright son but then it may not have been any better if they had been too much the other way:   Not the slightest bit interested and disapproving of whatever you have a talent in.

       I think the main advice I must give is just to be very careful not to provide any personal identifying information if you continue with this discussion.   For example, don't put the actual name of the school you went to on a public forum like this.   So far it looks as if you have been careful enough.    After that it has to be a reminder that the forum is unable to offer expert health or well-being advice.   Specifcally, I am certainly not qualified to distribute such advice.   You should speak to an appropriate professional if you feel there is a need.

Best Wishes.

[varsigma (OP)]

After that it has to be a reminder that the forum is unable to offer expert health or well-being advice.   Specifcally, I am certainly not qualified to distribute such advice.   You should speak to an appropriate professional if you feel there is a need.

I'm not really all that concerned about sympathy, but thanks anyway. If I do have some kind of unique problem, which I find very hard to believe, maybe I should see a doctor. I know it all looks a bit pessimistic. I suppose I wanted to explore what really happened and compare that to what I was told. I seemed to be a bit like that at every school I went to.

I am actually visually impaired, not stupid. It has occurred to me that this problem I have isn't a small thing, for other people.
I've learned it's a better option to learn how not to care about concern from others that isn't really about you.
So that's my experience with sympathy. Sometimes it's actually a mistake to believe people are sympathetic.

But that is a stupid mistake to make and I'm not stupid. I just haven't bothered pointing that out to a lot of the sympathisers and, I have seen what happens to people who only act genuine. Instead of being actually genuine, which makes it difficult for me.

But I have to ask myself, do I really care? If I do, what about and why? Surely there's more to it than being thankful there are people who feel sorry for you. I want to know why they do.

[alancalverd]

I think teachers will agree that, interesting ideas are more fun to learn about, and, not all ideas are interesting but still need to be learned.

That's where the "practical demonstration followed by analysis" approach is very helpful.  If the teacher can't think of a practical application, ask why it's worth learning the idea at all.

I am actually visually impaired,

I wonder if that might be a root cause? When were you diagnosed, and did you get immediate assistance? I was lucky that a primary school teacher spotted my myopia at an early age.

[varsigma (OP)]

I wonder if that might be a root cause? When were you diagnosed, and did you get immediate assistance? I was lucky that a primary school teacher spotted my myopia at an early age.

Again, what happened with that is another indication to me, that my life is one big circumstance. I knew that if I was given a proper eye test I'd be wearing glasses, so I cheated the one I was given. By the time I got diagnosed properly I was 11.

But being partially sighted gives you the same abilities, give or take, as normally sighted people have, apart from proper binocular vision or 20/20 acuity. Ho hum. The give or take, as I learned, can involve some humor.

I'm not being bitter and twisted, I'm using my natural ability to be laconic, to use the kind of humor I learned from my classmates to see what it might really have been. As if I don't know. You may have seen the movie Lock, Stock, and two Smoking Barrels. Need I say more.

The vein, as it were, of ironic material I'm mining leads me to the use of modern idiom, neologisms such as Karens or Kevins, these are characters in the play who walk on the stage and demand to know what everyone thinks they'e doing.

The hall monitors of modern living. So, there's a well known Kevin, a chef, bit of a character.

Hence my coining a neologism of some linguistic use: A Ramsey of Kevins, the collective noun.
Indeed, it  emits a Shakespearean odor. Someone's in the kitchen. I think even Sir Ian McKellan might give it a nod.

[varsigma (OP)]

Here is what I'm trying to put together at the moment.

Eloquence, elegant or inspiring speech or words have a certain symmetry, call this the symmetry of composition in the algebra.

Grammar and alphabets and all that are outside the domain of this at first, you need to decide what the set of things you will be adding together, at least has in it.
I decided to choose all combinations of English words which retain their meaning or eloquence under permutation. So start with pairs and work up to phrases or sentences. Which pairs of words can be switched around so this happens, and, is it interesting, do you see something you didn't before? And which pairs qualify as eloquent compositions, or do phrases need more than two words? Which words aren't eloquent or form eloquent phrases.

Kinda pushing the envelope over here. Poetry can be eloquent but it doesn't have to be. Humorous literature is eloquent in a different sense, perhaps. But there it is, we like seeing or hearing symmetries. Languages must reflect this.

I'm aware that the number of such phrases might be quite a lot smaller than ineloquent stuff. I think Shakespeare would be a good source. An easy example is the three words I, would, and lief. The third word roughly means "rather", but that isn't a direct translation.

So
I would lief, I lief would
Would I lief, Would lief I
Lief I would, Lief would I

All retain the symmetry I mean. I'd say there are plenty of other three-word examples.

[varsigma (OP)]

I don't know if it is an example of the kind of feedback I might have seen in the past, because I've only seen one example of someone remind me that my famous chef's first name isn't Kevin, in a roundabout way.

I would have been pilloried for my "mistake" as his first name is Gordon,
That isn't a mistake I made though. I know that's his first name, and I see you didn't get my joke. Ok it's not that funny I'll admit.

But being told I've made a mistake with a name when I didn't would be an example of people who are smarter than people like me correcting a mistake. What I perceive though is them making a mistake about my joke and not understanding my warped sense of humor.

[alancalverd]

Ah, Gordon Ramsay, makes sense.

[varsigma (OP)]

Back to my construction.

Languages like English have idiom. I would say I have my work cut out looking for permutable examples of "eloquent" phrases. However, Latin is a language which has sentences where the order of words isn't important except for an idiom.

But, if this permutable order of words, in Latin, is something that I can use to support a theory, which is that the eloquent nature of a phrase is preserved under permutation of the set of words in it, that would be all I need. The right set of things to start with. So, mathematics has this sort of cookbook that lets you construct some algebra which will conform to the modern definition of what one is.

Cool.

[Eternal Student]

Hi.

  Gordon Ramsey?   His language can be a bit fierce and inappropriate.   
   I'm not sure I would want to have him involved with a school or anything involving permutations found in the English Language.

...I know that's his first name, and I see you didn't get my joke....

   Sorry, as stated earlier....   the Kevin Ramsey comment is way over my head ....
   I'm a bit slow....  I thought I did well just to recognise that this probably was something going over my head.

Best Wishes.

[varsigma (OP)]

I think sites like this, if anything approaching understanding of the words involved, under permutation or otherwise (chuckle), is really there, it can't include actual feelings or expressions. There's no body language at all.

Conveying how you feel is the problem with it. Otherwise, communication only needs to be effective, in say, the sense you find on stackexchange or similar.

Joking around with words was a bit of a forte for me, during various dull moments in a classroom.
Last night, I put this together:

Silence of the Lambs, a precis by _ _

Hannibal Lecter liked liver with fava beans.
He kept in his pantry, some bottles of Chianti.

A bit later, I channeled Kenneth Branaugh improvising Hamlet.

As the King of my reach I tread the halls of my own stately house,
My castle on a hill.

I sense there are evil men with dark plans lurking in what shadows they might,
Each with schemes afoot to upset the peace of my Kingdom.

I must send spies to break open their secrets, and bring these conspirators before the eye
Which is mine alone. My seat of judgement.
My benighted throne.

K?

[varsigma (OP)]

Ok sorry if I look like I'm trying to impress people. I hate that.

But, how did I learn to do that sort of off-the-cuff, in less than an hour, stuff? All by myself?
No, not at all. Not all by myself. My rough explanation is I've been exposed to Shakespeare, from the school production level and English lessons, to the professional level, BBC type stuff. Also I've seen how the minds of people who are actors negotiate their roles, how well they do it, how convincing is it etc.

Given that exposure and my interest in languages the rest for me at least, isn't a big thing. But I don't have a certificate in creativity, I have a high IQ. It's been tested by the grownups, for my, or perhaps their benefit and here we are looking at it, I suppose.

I've been doing this for a while I've been playing the guitar for a while too, and I'm happy with what I can do on one.
I could go to any garden party, they don't need to know my name, I'd do okay. I can bring Johnny B along.

[varsigma (OP)]

Learning must involve learning a language. When you start school you have a knowledge of your native language.

What about modern song lyrics and the idea of having words set to music, or doing it the other way? What degrees of freedom exist in the composition of a song, with words. If your education wasn't that great, would it be a hit? (spoiler alert)

It seems to me there are two kinds of extreme examples, like a poem set to a monotonic melody, a single note or click or tap, such as seen in poetry read by John Cooper Clarke, which is minimally musical, say. Or one chord tunes by the likes of Talking Heads, say This must be the Place, which is the same chord modulated by a 3-note shift. The music is a side-dish, the lyrics are the focus.

Then music that isn't  meant to be about enjoyment, the Sex Pistols, death Metal, where actual words often become incoherent growls and snarls, etc. This is the use of human voices to deliver a kind of non-verbal message, possibly.

Ok, The Foo Fighters and Dave Grohl are almost synonymous. The man has been on the long way to the top for a while.
There goes my Hero is a song he penned over a 2-chord change, again with minimal modulation, just following the sung melody. It's about a boy realising the heroes he has stuck up on his bedroom wall are all fakes. He has to take them all down now. So it's that time a boy knows that real heroes often don't get their picture on a wall, or even anyone there to take a picture.
All with a very simple melody, but a lot of emotional charge in the way he expresses what he himself felt, so he's a man I see as very genuine about it all. A major dude.

He's a man who has admitted weakness, male weakness means a man who succumbed to the whiles of another woman, right? Of course he no doubt displayed this weakness towards her in a fairly willing manner.  Who wants to be a perfect rock n roll father? Does that work? I hope the kids are ok, I do, they have a father who has to repair his own fall from hero status, with them. I pray for them in my own way, let's say.

[varsigma (OP)]

Learning mathematics and learning about the structure of music should be explained to young people.

I think if a teacher had pointed out that if you study music you are studying algebra, things might have clicked for me a bit earlier. Like, what really is a polynomial, I think I could have handled the idea that a chord is a kind of sum of products or terms, which are the individual notes. It didn't happen then but I can see it works now.

So, the other thing it takes a while to figure out, and I can't remember being told this, is that the physical world and numbers are in different kinds of places, if a place for numbers is a concept that works.
But you know, how long is a piece of string?

Mathematics says, that isn't an equation. you need to replace the word "is" with an equal sign and go from there. If you want to know how long a particular physical piece of string is, I can't tell you that either unless you have a definition of a metric distance to compare it to. That's it, where you do it is up to you, type of thing. Numbers cannot tell you what a physical distance is, ergo, distances can't be numbers, except in that specific metric, or mathematical sense. And what is an infinite distance if infinity isn't a number?

Why don't children explore these "difficult" ideas?

[varsigma (OP)]

I wrote this poem of my own about heroes.

It's actually about being heroic about getting an education. I suppose that could mean I'm trying to say I'm one, but I do have two bits of paper and I've spent a total of 14 semesters, or 7 years at universities in my country.

In fact this poem is about me in that way, or about anyone I guess who keeps wanting to be a hero, so if you didn't know about my reasons that's what it is about. No I don't think I'm that much of one, but It has been a heroic effort even if I didn't win any wars.

One for the Heroes

You can be a hero, just for one day,
That's usually what it takes.

If you become a hero, you don't need to do it again.
We all know that, and so should you,

You dumb hero, you.


Heroes II

Heroes can often end up not wanting to be
Heroes anymore.
It gets harder to come knocking on their hero door. They hear you knocking
But you can't come in.