[alancalverd (OP)]

The first transcontinental railway in North America, the Canadian Pacific Railway (CPR), was constructed between 1870 and 1885. It spanned over 2,900 miles from Montreal to Vancouver, British Columbia. The CPR faced numerous challenges during its construction, including harsh weather conditions, difficult terrain, and labor disputes. However, it was completed ahead of schedule and under budget, thanks to the leadership of its chief engineer, Thomas J. McCallum.

High Speed 2 (HS2) is a [140 mile] high-speed railway which has been under construction in England since 2019. ............... The majority of the project was planned to be completed by 2033; however, in 2025, the completion date was announced to be further delayed by transport secretary Heidi Alexander.

What has gone wrong in the last 150 years? If HS2 construction workers are drowning in swamps, freezing to death, or being eaten by bears, surely we should be told?

[paul cotter]

Bears, most likely. I have heard some reports of giant Sundew plants in the area, though I cannot verify such reports, at present.

[vhfpmr]

What has gone wrong in the last 150 years?

The systematic devaluing of STEM subjects by a society that thinks they're all geeks and nerds. There seems to have been a recent rise in interest in STEM as entertainment, but the skills in practicing it were lost decades ago. Thatcher's "post-industrial" economy for you.

[alancalverd (OP)]

I just stumbled on the answer to my own question! The great railway pioneers built the track to run their own trains, so they (and their shareholders) wouldn't make any money until the track was finished and folk started paying to travel. 

It doesn't matter whether the trains are privately or publicly owned, as long as the bloke who cuts the first sod and lays the first sleeper is being paid directly by the company that needs the job done ASAP, and won't get a bonus until the first train runs. Perhaps the way to run large contracts is to offer preference shares in the outcome, as part of everyone's wages.

[Petrochemicals]

I believe Spain has constructed 2500miles with stations and rolling stock for ?150 billion, track on its own costs around the 20 million quid mark.

It befuddles my brain to understand why Britain finds such costs as HS2 to be normal, are they all stupid ?

[alancalverd (OP)]

A relevant statistic that is often overlooked is that half of all the chartered accountants in the former European Union were British.

My daughter is a civil engineer. She took a Masters degree in conflict resolution in the construction industry, and remarked that, whatever the question,  every lawyer or accountant in her class wanted to screw the opposition for every penny, and every engineer wanted to find the quickest solution to get the job done.

[Bored chemist]

............... The majority of the project was planned to be completed by 2033; however, in 2025, the completion date was announced to be further delayed by transport secretary Heidi Alexander.

What has gone wrong in the last 150 years
[/quote]

Because a government composed of maniacs undid the preparatory work by selling off the land that was needed.
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/government-confirm-hs2-eastern-leg-land-sale-but-no-decision-on-western-leg

[alancalverd (OP)]

Not sure about the timeline here, but I thought the decision to curtail the project was made before the land was sold.

If you bought land to build a house, then discovered that you couldn't actually finish the job, wouldn't it be sensible to sell the land before it reverted to jungle or a linear fly tip?  Slightly different in the case of public ownership, perhaps - being a socialist at heart I'd farm it as a national park - but one way or another land is too scarce to just abandon it.

[Bored chemist]

If you bought land to build a house, then discovered that you couldn't actually finish the job,

They just decided not to do the job because they like cars. Then they sold the land out of spite because they knew it would be exceptionally hard to regain.

[alancalverd (OP)]

HS2 was a vanity project supported by both major political parties.

A decision to cancel on the basis of liking cars does not sit well with Labour policies in general, nor with Tory electoral aspirations, as the only beneficiaries of HS2 (apart from bankers and lawyers, of course) would have been the voters of the Red Wall area -  where cars are no longer manufactured, but trains are!

[Bored chemist]

HS2 was an infrastructure project designed to double the rail capacity linking the North and South.
Trains are more efficient than road transport, but that only matters if you believe that wasting energy is bad.

[Petrochemicals]

A decision to cancel on the basis of liking cars does not sit well with Labour policies in general, nor with Tory electoral aspirations, as the only beneficiaries of HS2 (apart from bankers and lawyers, of course) would have been the voters of the Red Wall area -  where cars are no longer manufactured, but trains are!

I'm not sure there will be of any benefit. In the infinite wisdom HS2 will dock in Birmingham at an new train station 15 minutes away from the countries biggest interchange New Street Station.

[alancalverd (OP)]

HS2 was an infrastructure project designed to double the rail capacity linking the North and South.

I can count four main lines leaving London to the north, plus two more running northwards into East Anglia. Another links Plymouth (you can't get much souther) to Leeds. Adding 100 miles of track between London and Birmingham, or even continuing to Manchester and Leeds,  doesn't double the capacity. 

Trains are more efficient than road transport, but that only matters if you believe that wasting energy is bad.

It's a moot point. Trains don't run door-to-door, so you still need a city full of motor vehicles to get to and from the station, and unlike cars and trucks they have to run even when empty. Ignoring the inconvenience, by the time you have added the energy invested in building the infrastructure, the energy breakeven point between a new rail link and an airline is at least 20 years, by which time you will probably need to replace the trains.

The great thing about cars trucks and buses is their ability to start and stop where people want, not to be affected by the breakdown or slow running of he vehicle in front., and to divert to an alternative route if the track is under repair. When did you last take a rail replacement for a bus service? When was a car journey disrupted by a labor dispute?

If rail transport is so energy efficient, why did it cost me less to fly 3 people in a small plane from Southampton to Liverpool than for one to go by train?

But we still haven't really identified why it has taken so long and cost so much to build a railway line that wouldn't quite link London to Birmingham even if it were ever completed.

[Bored chemist]

HS2 was an infrastructure project designed to double the rail capacity linking the North and South.

I can count four main lines leaving London to the north, plus two more running northwards into East Anglia. Another links Plymouth (you can't get much souther) to Leeds. Adding 100 miles of track between London and Birmingham, or even continuing to Manchester and Leeds,  doesn't double the capacity. 

Trains are more efficient than road transport, but that only matters if you believe that wasting energy is bad.

It's a moot point. Trains don't run door-to-door, so you still need a city full of motor vehicles to get to and from the station, and unlike cars and trucks they have to run even when empty. Ignoring the inconvenience, by the time you have added the energy invested in building the infrastructure, the energy breakeven point between a new rail link and an airline is at least 20 years, by which time you will probably need to replace the trains.

The great thing about cars trucks and buses is their ability to start and stop where people want, not to be affected by the breakdown or slow running of he vehicle in front., and to divert to an alternative route if the track is under repair. When did you last take a rail replacement for a bus service? When was a car journey disrupted by a labor dispute?

If rail transport is so energy efficient, why did it cost me less to fly 3 people in a small plane from Southampton to Liverpool than for one to go by train?

But we still haven't really identified why it has taken so long and cost so much to build a railway line that wouldn't quite link London to Birmingham even if it were ever completed.

Since you think a line from London to Plymouth links North an d south, there's not much point talking to you.
The trucks also run empty a fair bit of the time.

"by which time you will probably need to replace the trains"
Would you say that our rolling stock is, on average, older or younger than our aircraft?
(And that's before we get to the "ship of Theseus element of many planes)

" to divert to an alternative route if the track is under repair. "
A large part of the point of HS2 is to provide that alternative route.
You just shot down your own argument.

When did you last take a rail replacement for a bus service?
Never, or always, depending on how you look at it.
I never went to the bus station and was told I would have to take the train instead.
But every time I took a train, I chose it rather than the bus, so I replaced a potential bus trip with a train trip. (Usually at significant extra cost.

Of course there's also the "rail replacement bus service" to consider.
Well, when I lived in London and had family near Liverpool (About 4 years) , I think I ended up taking the bus once for the whole trip and a couple of times for part of it.

On the other hand, living in Sheffield and trying to get "home" across the Pennines I have run into that issue a few times.
It's not difficult to avoid, you just travel via Leeds.
Feel free to find out how often the A57 Snake Pass gets closed.



" not to be affected by the breakdown or slow running of the vehicle in front."
Said a man who never got stuck behind a tractor...

"When was a car journey disrupted by a labor dispute?"
Moot point but teh latest big one was 2021. The labour shortage was caused by Brexit.
However, more recently. December 2024
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cqx8eqdezx8o

Or how about 2014 in Scotland
https://www.itfglobal.org/en/news/scottish-oil-tanker-drivers-strike-over-contract-cuts




It's a different argument but re "you still need a city full of motor vehicles to get to and from the station,"
Quite often what you need is a public transport network.

[alancalverd (OP)]

Since you think a line from London to Plymouth links North an d south,

Time for Specsavers, my friend! I said Plymouth to Leeds, which is not a suburb of London.

Would you say that our rolling stock is, on average, older or younger than our aircraft?

Commercial aircraft typically operate between 25 to 45 years, with narrowbody planes lasting around 27 years and widebodies up to 40 years. Pretty much the same as a train, but it covers around 5 times the distance in that time, with negligible infrastructure cost.

A large part of the point of HS2 is to provide that alternative route.

It is true that the West Coast Main Line absolutely needs an alternative, but the problematic area is north of Birmingham. And if the line is running to capacity, how do you fit another train safely between those already on the line?  If you intersperse a goods train between two high speed passenger trains, won't the passengers complain a bit?  You need a third "overtaking " lane!

The [2021] labour shortage was caused by Brexit

Has Brexit really been reversed since then?

Feel free to find out how often the A57 Snake Pass gets closed.

About as often as the entire rail network sufers from the wrong kind of snow!


 

[Petrochemicals]

Trains don't run door-to-door, so you still need a city full of motor vehicles to get to and from the station,

amazingly in London people don't need this, by some sort of magic it is possible to live without a car yet still travel.

[vhfpmr]

The great thing about cars trucks and buses is their ability to start and stop where people want

The other big problem with public transport is the waiting time, it often adds more time than the actual difference in travel time. This is why public transport needs to be as near free as makes no difference, to compensate for it's other failings. Unfortunately it's actually going the other way:


Bus-Rail-Car Cost Comparison.jpeg (401.97 kB . 1200x1200 - viewed 282 times)

You need a third "overtaking " lane!

That's what the passing loops at stations are.

[Bored chemist]

Would you say that our rolling stock is, on average, older or younger than our aircraft?

Commercial aircraft typically operate ..., with negligible infrastructure cost.

So, no problem with the new Heathrow extension then. About ?49 billion about half the price of HS2, but shorter.

[alancalverd (OP)]

amazingly in London people don't need this, by some sort of magic it is possible to live without a car yet still travel.

Back in the 1980s the Dept of Health ran a national survey of disability and discovered that there were very few disabled people in London, but over 25% of the population of rural Northern Ireland was seriously mobility-impaired. I was on a committee charged with looking at technological solutions to disability but before calling for solutions I thought it worthwhile to question the question. It turned out that a key question was "Can you walk to a bus stop?" and many other questions concerned shopping, visiting a doctor or dentist, and so forth. Something to do, I think, with population density.

[alancalverd (OP)]

So, no problem with the new Heathrow extension then. About ?49 billion about half the price of HS2, but shorter.

"A mile of road will take you nowhere. A mile of runway will take you anywhere."