[neilep (OP)]

I overhead some colleagues talking about a film called '21 grammes'...or something like that. Apparently, at the point of death you lose this amount of weight, and they claim this film is based on fact !!..Now I find this very hard to accept but can someone give this curious mind of mine some incite please ?

And if it is true, how on earth do they measure it ?

Ta very much.

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

[MayoFlyFarmer]

24g isn't much...   Its quite possibly true, but the people who think its your "soul" leaving your body or something like that are rather looney if you ask me.  Its probably just the air expelled formyour lungs and other such expulsion of wastes

A submarine is NOT a cargo ship!

[roberth]

Actually, the movie is called 21 grams and the title refers to the amount of weight lost when you croak. I do believe it relates to the weight of air expelled at your final breath.

[neilep (OP)]

Thanks Justy, thanks Roberth....well that's cleared that up !!...next time the doctor asks me to step onto the scales I'll exhale !! (I need all the help I can get !!)

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

[tweener]

21 (or 24) grams seems like an awful lot of air - I don't know how to calculate that volume, but it seems like a lot more than a persons lungs could hold.  That's more like what their bladder would hold.

Expelling air from the body would not decrease the person's weight because the surrounding air bouyancy would completely negate the effect.  Technically, it would decrease the mass of the persons body, but not the weight unless they were in a vacuum.

Overall, I think the weight loss is probably a bunch of hooie, and the idea that it has anything to do with a persons "soul" is definitely hooie.

----
John - The Eternal Pessimist.

[neilep (OP)]

Well..there you have it !!!.......In all honesty (as a non academic --have i mentioned that before?)I did think 21-24 grams was heavy for air...so, I just assumed it was well heavy air !!!...and who am I to disagree with such distinguished educators as you lot......still, i suppose the question lives on....perhaps we could all have a mass-debate ?...(Hey..perhaps that's where the 21 grams cums from...NO !! STOP it Neil...don't go there)....ooops...sorry.

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

[gsmollin]

If I remember my ideal gas law, 14 g of nitrogen (its atomic weight is 14) would have a volume of 22.4 l at STP. That is way more than the max volume of a pair of lungs. On the other hand, the bladder holds way more than 22 g of fluid. It's at least 500 g. Anyway, everybody would have a different amount of urine, and that could easily be caught and weighed. So I can't explain the 22 g loss. I can't say it's true either.

[ebzZzZ]

this goes to show you should read the other posts
on the website and compare them,

i refer you to

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=818

this shows the discrepancy in the laws of thermodynamics.

There are biology papers that show there is a hidden inertia
within cells.

the mass actually increases once the organism knows it's about to
die then the mass decreases to a level lower after death.

[neilep (OP)]

Thanks Ebzzz...I'll try and remember to scan every single thread on this website before posing any other questions...silly me !!  I should have known to look at your thread 'simple biology for physics experiment'....[][][]...interesting stuff though..thanks.



'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

[Titanscape]

I have recently begun to learn Aikido, ai ki do or harmony of "ki" in chinese "chi". And in the lesson at least I could make myself unliftable. It was called a party trick but really this little chinese girl applied her ki istead of being rigid and we tried hard but could not lift her! We also couldn't bend her out stretched arm at the end of the first lesson. Ki is like directed energy and intention rather than rigid force. Aikido uses the opponents ki. I recommend it.

Perhaps the easterners have something there that is not in the deceased.

Titanscape

[Titanscape]

I have recently begun to learn Aikido, ai ki do or harmony of "ki" in chinese "chi". And in the lesson at least I could make myself unliftable. It was called a party trick but really this little chinese girl applied her ki istead of being rigid and we tried hard but could not lift her! We also couldn't bend her out stretched arm at the end of the first lesson. Ki is like directed energy and intention rather than rigid force. Aikido uses the opponents ki. I recommend it.

Perhaps the easterners have something there that is not in the deceased.

Titanscape

[neilep (OP)]

Bren..that is really fascinating (serioulsy..I'm not being sarcastic here)...thanks for that. I appreciate your input.

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

[ebzZzZ]

titanscape i'm interested in internal strengthening cause of the
sports i do like, inline skating, snowboarding and windsurfing,
and the crazy stuff you do with your mates a bit like jackass
pushing yourself physically, can you tell us a bit more about
Aikido, i've looked ar qigong and wudang taiji just trying to
decide where to start

my apologies neilep i suppose it wasn't very obvious from
the title

ebz

[neilep (OP)]

Ebz...no worries at all...thanks for putting up with my cheekiness !!

'Men are the same as women...just inside out !'

[ebzZzZ]

Another interesting thing is that
the film "crouching tiger hidden dragon"
is based on the wudang school teachings
from the toaist mountain region in china
me assumes, wudang is a important part
of the more advanced forms of taiji with
internal strengthening.

ebz

[gsmollin]

quote:Originally posted by ebzZzZ



this goes to show you should read the other posts
on the website and compare them,

i refer you to

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=818

this shows the discrepancy in the laws of thermodynamics.

There are biology papers that show there is a hidden inertia
within cells.

the mass actually increases once the organism knows it's about to
die then the mass decreases to a level lower after death.

That paper claims a mass increase with time in a closed container housing fungus, or worms. It made no mention of a subsequent mass decrease when the worms died. I believe there is a much simpler explanation for this than a mysterious life force, or a hole in thermodynamic laws.

[ebzZzZ]

"The weight of the test-tube with the worms was found to have increased in the first 3 minutes after the poisoning on average for an average weight of 60 micrograms and it then went down.  Fifteen minutes after poisoning, the weight diminished on average by 93.6 micrograms"

there must be a mistake?? you think my friends who did this
experiment would not have checked, re checked? they did the
experiment to prove that it does happen.

they didn't do the experiment and found this by accident. the
experiment was done to show this occures.

ebz

[gsmollin]

Experiments are done in error all the time. I can't tell you what they did wrong, because I wasn't there. It's not science until it gets repeated by researchers all over the world. If you can show me who else has done this, and what responsible journals have published the results, then I'll take a serious look.

[ebzZzZ]

the reason no one has repeated the experiment
in great detail is because nobody realises
that there is a problem due to science's blind
following of einsteins early work without properly
understanding his later work

[Titanscape]

I recommend that you check out your localish university sports clubs such as online and by email or telephone. There is also the unofficial Steven Seagall website. Books too.

My instructor said that ki is sourced from the region just below the belly button where the centre of gravity also is. So when cofused to concentrate there. No strees of cousre one of the Aikido rules is relaxation and another is good posture. After Glen rolled forward I could not push him back! Just remember to respect the master but not to pay homage.

Titanscape