[CPT ArkAngel]

Material world seem to follow basic logical laws. What would be the logical goal of all this if everything is deterministic including all living things?

[Bored chemist]

Why should there be a "goal"?
Who set it?

[CPT ArkAngel]

It is a pure speculation but physics laws seem to follow the logical goal of evolution and adaptation. The Universe seems to be made for evolution... Unfortunately, we need problems to evolve... [B)]

[CliffordK]

I suppose you could say that the current state of your body and brain will determine how you perceive and respond to an event or stimulus. 

So, in a sense, you are predisposed to a reaction based on your brain's state.

However, there are enough "random" things that happen that it would be impossible to determine everything that would lead from birth to the current state.  Presumably some randomness in the formation of synapses.

And, even if you can predict everything else...  spontaneously some of your Carbon atoms will change into Nitrogen atoms.  Which ones, and when, you can not pre-determine.  And then what happens next depends on what that molecule was part of (as well as what happens to the ejected proton).

Once you've added the "random" events.  Then the state is no longer predictable. 

[keith sheraw]

yes fantastic i thought of this awhile back and was wondering if anyone eles had i thought of it a little different i came up with it when thinking about of the begining of mass and energy. and my thought was that if all the data from the begining was collected then every thing could be predicted

[siochi (OP)]

I don't think you are getting the point.

The human mind is the product of what its external surrounding are. And by external surrounding, I am referring to every thing starting from the biology of the brain, neurons, and neural connections to the body in which it is to the universe it lives in. The human mind is incapable of producing any free thought as all of its activities are just responses to the external stimulations.

[Bored chemist]

You have yet to make a point.

You have an idea and it depends on this
"Firstly, I would like to state one of the essential laws of the universe- The law of Causality. According to the law of causality, every effect has a cause and every cause has an effect."
which isn't true.

[yor_on]

Probability seems true. Chaos theory tell us that although bifurcations (paths splitting) are impossible to backtrack, Feigenbaum's constant still will present us with a linear definition of them. If your idea was right those bifurcations lineage should be 'individually traceable' backwards, but they're not.

We do not live in a deterministic universe, although there are layers of determinism to it. It's weirder than you ever imagined this universe

[Martin Veltjen]

Siochi,

Your hypothesis is correct. But it is more philosophy. Schopenhauer figured it out a long time ago (but he didn't really understand it, in my opinion). The fact that you can not explain why an atom decays, doesn't mean that there is no cause. QM is just stuck on that point for the time being (they can't calculate the position and speed or something - personally I guess the problem comes down to the nature of 'time'.) Free will does not exist. A few years back there was an article in the NYT on the subject in which scientists had invented a way of trying to cope with this insight. God does not play dice with the universe.



Mod edit - for fairly obvious reasons, we would prefer it if you didn't promote other science forums, so I've removed the link - Ben.

You surely did not edit out of free will, ;-)

[yor_on]

Ah, but he did. He could have let it alone

And no, throwing in a famous name, and then stating that you found him inadequate, do not impress here.

[Expectant_Philosopher]

If we are without free will, are we trapped in a predetermined pattern of development, similar to the systems of the Rama ship, in "Rendevous with Rama".  Pre-scripted events we need to do before the next break through.  If we suppose in the universe there are civilizations in the stone age, then us, then civilizations whose science appears as magic for us, why can't we slip out of the science we are in to the science that could be?  Why does science have to be evolutionary?  Can we break the bonds of cause and affect, merely by imagining it to be so?  Remove the affective filters that tell us this is the way it is, that it is impossible by today's science.  Make the leap of faith, to a science that allows us to live forever, to explore the stars, to go from place to place without any space in between.