[Jolly2 (OP)]

As the magnetic force would be doesnt mean anything.

I don't know what you mean by this sentence, as I didn't mention magnetism.

That which propels photons out of a sun, the impulse that starts the journey has little to do with gravity if they had gravity it would hammer their action.

At no point did I say that gravity has anything to do with light being emitted by the Sun.

Conservation of momentum for a photon does not require gravity.

It does when it involves gravitational lensing.

I don't see how when gravity bends space and light follows the bend, light isn't effected by gravity its effects by space curvature.

Which is simply gravities effect on a photon as it passes through curved space.  Its gravitys effect on light, again nothing to do with light producing gravity.

It does if you want momentum to be conserved. The change in momentum of the beam of light has to be equal and opposite to the change in momentum of the Sun in order to satisfy that law. That requires that the Sun be attracted to the beam of light every bit as strongly as the beam of light is attracted to the Sun.

That's your evidence for photons having gravity as I suggested before electromagnetic force could be causing that interaction not gravity

You cant compare dust to photons

I can in this particular example. It's a clear illustration that, just because something has gravity, it doesn't mean that the gravity must be strong enough to be noticeable by the human senses.

Wasnt interested in human senses this was about gravity and its influence on surrounding particles.

Sure but if photons produced gravity I doubt they would escape the sun at all.

Show the math on that, because I'm skeptical. Show that the energy of a photon (at any desired frequency) is insufficient to raise it out of the Sun's gravitational potential (consider the photon's mass equal to its energy via E=mc²).

We are just going round in circles I would like Halc opinion on this.

If you want to get his attention, you should put an @ sign in front of his name, like @Halc.

Implies the idea space is actually something,  could space be dark matter?

There is another theory that goes along similar lines. The idea is that there some kind of "fluid" that is intrinsic to all space that acts like dark matter under some circumstances and dark energy under others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_fluid

Thanks for the link, Im not sure I agree with the dark energy side of the equation, space would be dark matter that is energy less like a Kinda energy less photon

[Kryptid]

I don't see how when gravity bends space and light follows the bend, light isn't effected by gravity its effects by space curvature.

It is affected by the curvature, but it produces its own curvature as well.

That's your evidence for photons having gravity as I suggested before electromagnetic force could be causing that interaction not gravity

Light is neither attracted to nor repelled by electromagnetic fields, so we know that's not the cause of gravitational lensing. So again, do you think Einstein got the right numbers by accident?

Wasnt interested in human senses this was about gravity and its influence on surrounding particles.

Then you realize that just because we don't see two beams of light pulled towards each other that doesn't mean they don't have gravity, right?

Thanks for the link, Im not sure I agree with the dark energy side of the equation, space would be dark matter that is energy less like a Kinda energy less photon

Space by itself can't be dark matter. If space itself had mass, then it would pull all matter equally in all directions because it already exists in all places (obviously). So there would be no anomalous galactic rotation curves. Besides, something that has no energy would have no gravity.

Also, where is the math showing that light shouldn't be able to escape the Sun if it had gravity?

[Jolly2 (OP)]

I don't see how when gravity bends space and light follows the bend, light isn't effected by gravity its effects by space curvature.

It is affected by the curvature, but it produces its own curvature as well.

That's your evidence for photons having gravity as I suggested before electromagnetic force could be causing that interaction not gravity

Light is neither attracted to nor repelled by electromagnetic fields, so we know that's not the cause of gravitational lensing. So again, do you think Einstein got the right numbers by accident?

Wasnt interested in human senses this was about gravity and its influence on surrounding particles.

Then you realize that just because we don't see two beams of light pulled towards each other that doesn't mean they don't have gravity, right?

Thanks for the link, Im not sure I agree with the dark energy side of the equation, space would be dark matter that is energy less like a Kinda energy less photon

Space by itself can't be dark matter. If space itself had mass, then it would pull all matter equally in all directions because it already exists in all places (obviously). So there would be no anomalous galactic rotation curves. Besides, something that has no energy would have no gravity.

Right you are now arguing that space, SPACE has gravity?

If space can curve, there has to be something curving. Cant be nothing curving.
 
Maybe dark matter doesn't have a mass, that was my suggestion, I suggest space being a mass less dark matter.
Why you feel the need to add mass I dont know, because I never suggested it.

[Kryptid]

Right you are now arguing that space, SPACE has gravity?

I said the exact opposite of that...

[Jolly2 (OP)]

Right you are now arguing that space, SPACE has gravity?

I said the exact opposite of that...

We were talking about space as dark matter you said
"Besides, something that has no energy would have no gravity"

The implication is a suggestion space as dark matter, would have a gravity.

[Kryptid]

"Besides, something that has no energy would have no gravity"

Right.

The implication is a suggestion space as dark matter, would have a gravity.

Which is why I said, and I quote, "space by itself can't be dark matter".

[Jolly2 (OP)]

"Besides, something that has no energy would have no gravity"

Right.

The implication is a suggestion space as dark matter, would have a gravity.

Which is why I said, and I quote, "space by itself can't be dark matter".

Ok you are missing that my suggestion of dark matter, is not the same as the dark matter currently suggested. I am arguing for a dark matter with different qualities.

To save confusion,  I'll call it space matter.

A suggestion space is made of space matter. Energy less,  yet somehow able to hold toghter and bend under the force of gravity.

[Kryptid]

Dark matter has mass (and therefore energy), so your space matter doesn't fit the observations.

[Jolly2 (OP)]

Dark matter has mass (and therefore energy), so your space matter doesn't fit the observations.

Hence space matter and dark matter are different things.

[Kryptid]

So what is space matter supposed to do, exactly? What problem in physics does it solve?

[Jolly2 (OP)]

So what is space matter supposed to do, exactly? What problem in physics does it solve?

The what is space question.

[Jolly2 (OP)]

No, the earth wouldn't exist to have any gravity if you did that.

Then let's say we have a shell around the Earth. Then we inject the heat necessary to turn it into a plasma that is hot enough to dissociate nuclei. We use the necessary magnetic fields to hold the plasma away from the shell so it won't melt. So you still have all of Earth's original mass inside of the shell (plus whatever mass-energy came from the heat you used to vaporize it).

Actually if you did that the earth potentially would become a miniature sun, and could therefore have a stronger gravity as forces once used to hold the earth together would be free.
Umm

[Bored chemist]

would become a miniature sun, and could therefore have a stronger gravity

No

[Kryptid]

NO! I know what gravity really is, what really causes it, but I can't tell U,
coz I can't risk giving my TOE away, OK?

Then what was the point of making this comment?

[Colin2B]

NO! I know what gravity really is, what really causes it, but I can't tell U,
coz I can't risk giving my TOE away, OK?

Then what was the point of making this comment?

I think this cat is intent on littering this forum.
If so then s/he is right, one of nine will end.

[Kryptid]

Do U really expect me to address this (thread) seriously?

I expect you to not spam.