[LeeE]

So if you believed in God and then 1 day he provided absolute proof of his existence, would you necessarily cease to be religious?

Would you agree that being religious is basing your understanding of reality upon the existence of a hypothetical God, or pantheon of deities, who through powers and abilities unknown direct everything that happens in that reality? Or perhaps you might define religion as the adoption of the policies, dictated by the religion that you follow, that direct how you should live your life?

In either case, the only difference between religion and say, football or politics, is that football teams and political parties actually exist.  Once a deity is known to exist, then it becomes more like football or politics, except that for most religions there's only one team to support, or party to vote for.

Regarding your little peasant sitting in his hovel; while he may not have seen him first-hand before, even today, and with a total population that's likely to be many times greater than in your example, the six degrees of separation is still largely thought to hold true so although he might not have seen the king, he wouldn't need to go through many links before he met someone else who had.  This doesn't apply to deities though.

[LeeE]

Incidentally, both the ancient Greeks and Asian Indians thought that the Earth was spherical.

You must have heard interpretations from guys who don't really know the bible. About Indians, it is common knowledge that they believed in an elephant with a turtle on it's back on whose back was the earth. Even just 500 years ago people were afraid of falling over the edge. And Philosophy was quite hot then.

It is clear to me that you've done nothing to check the veracity of what I've said.  If you had done so you would have been able to find out for yourself that the "guys who don't really know the bible" and who think that the ancient Greeks and Indians were aware that the Earth is round are the archaeologists who have found the evidence for it.  Similarly, claiming that it is "common knowledge" and therefore an established fact beyond doubt, that Indians believed in the turtle scenario just shows that you don't even want to find out whether it's true or not, just as a minority of people today still persist in believing in the existence of a deity for which there is no evidence, let alone proof.  And are you really claiming that everyone thought that the Earth was flat 500 years ago?  Once again, there's clear evidence to show otherwise.

Incidentally, I have read the Christian bible, both the old and new bits but I prefer The Lord of the Rings; it has a better plot, believable characters and is more plausible.

[DoctorBeaver]

So if you believed in God and then 1 day he provided absolute proof of his existence, would you necessarily cease to be religious?

Would you agree that being religious is basing your understanding of reality upon the existence of a hypothetical God, or pantheon of deities, who through powers and abilities unknown direct everything that happens in that reality?

I would alter that slightly to read "...hypothetical, or proven God..."

Or perhaps you might define religion as the adoption of the policies, dictated by the religion that you follow, that direct how you should live your life?

Religions do indeed dictate how you should live your life.

In either case, the only difference between religion and say, football or politics, is that football teams and political parties actually exist.  Once a deity is known to exist, then it becomes more like football or politics, except that for most religions there's only one team to support, or party to vote for.

But would that stop you being religious? Would you not adopt the view that your religion had been proven to be correct?

Regarding your little peasant sitting in his hovel; while he may not have seen him first-hand before, even today, and with a total population that's likely to be many times greater than in your example, the six degrees of separation is still largely thought to hold true so although he might not have seen the king, he wouldn't need to go through many links before he met someone else who had.  This doesn't apply to deities though.

Yes, it does apply to deities. Throughout history many people have claimed to have seen or communed with dieties. But we only have their word for it in the same way the peasant would have to accept the veracity of someone saying he had seen the monarch.

In fact the majority of the Old Testament and the Koran were written by men who claimed to have been told what they wrote either directly by a diety or by one of his messengers.

[LeeE]

But would that stop you being religious?

I think it would change the meaning of religion.  Either way, something would change as a consequence.

Regarding the peasant: you can't meet deities if they don't exist.

[Vern]

When I was about 10 years old I noticed that people generally accepted the religion that prevailed where they lived. Different societies had different religions. At first I thought that only one of those could be correct. That meant that most of them must be incorrect. Then it came to me. All of them are incorrect.

So that left me with: Maybe there is a deity out there that made everything happen. But if there is, no one has correctly described just exactly how that deity worked it all out. The least accurate of the attempts seem to be the various accounts of creation.

[demadone]

Religions do indeed dictate how you should live your life.

Not all religions teach the same thing so it would be unfair to generalize.

The bible says it is wrong to sleep with a woman/man you are not married to. But you will probably say it is just dictation. But who makes such rules? Don't say it is man because the instinct is break those barriers. What about murder being wrong? Survival of the fittest makes that the easier way out.

I know that the one who made those rules also made conscience so we know when we are going wrong. There is no way that could come about through evolution.

I'm not out to convince you, but just to share my thoughts.

Does anyone know how magic works if there is no spiritual realm? Not all of it is tricks. A good example is floating a person in air. Actually it's easier to see evidence of the devil than that of God, because God would never make himself obvious.

[DoctorBeaver]

Religions do indeed dictate how you should live your life.

Not all religions teach the same thing so it would be unfair to generalize.

They don't all teach the same thing, but they do all state how one should live one's life.

The bible says it is wrong to sleep with a woman/man you are not married to. But you will probably say it is just dictation. But who makes such rules? Don't say it is man because the instinct is break those barriers. What about murder being wrong? Survival of the fittest makes that the easier way out.

Adam and Eve weren't married and they had 2 sons.

I know that the one who made those rules also made conscience so we know when we are going wrong. There is no way that could come about through evolution.

No, you dno't know that, you believe it to be so. Conscience came about as a result of rules. WIthout rules there would be no need for conscience. You can put that down to societal evolution.

Does anyone know how magic works if there is no spiritual realm?

No-one knows.

Actually it's easier to see evidence of the devil than that of God, because God would never make himself obvious.

Why wouldn't he? He wants people to worship him so wouldn't it make more sense to show himself and give a demonstratin of his power?

The problem I have with religious people is the constant "It has to be this" or "There is no other way". The thing is it doesn't have to be this and there are other ways; ways that have been scientifically proven. But you refuse to accept that fact. Biblical words are re-interpreted in the light of scientific advances and the religious fraternity say that proves God exists. No, it doesn't. It just proves that the original wording was ambiguous and can mean many different things - or nothing at all.

[Vern]

Does anyone know how magic works if there is no spiritual realm? Not all of it is tricks. A good example is floating a person in air. Actually it's easier to see evidence of the devil than that of God, because God would never make himself obvious.

Wow ! I did not even know that magic is real. Shows how much I know []

[Don_1]

It's quite strange to think that so many people say 'I have faith in God'

If a complete stranger told you to have faith in the ancient Egyptian God 'Amun Ra', or the Viking God 'Odin', or the ancient Greek God 'Zeus', would you?

No.

Yet a complete stranger tells you to have faith in Jehova, Allah or whatever you want to call him, and you do. Is this simply because his name is Abraham?

You do not have faith in 'God', you have faith in Abraham. So would you have faith in him if he told you to have faith in 'Jupiter' King of the Roman Gods?

[dentstudent]

Quite so Don. They have atheistic pursuits towards Odin, Thor, Ra, Isis, Anubis; I just choose to go one step further. They deny the existence of 99.999% of all other "gods", so why stop at the last step?

[yor_on]

I don't know if there are a God.

But I knew that some of the best, warmest and trustworthy people I've had the pleasure to know had had a very personal belief in God.

I also know that some of the worst people have asserted the same belief.
But 'time' will tell, as Bob Marley once wrote:)

That, as most other important questions in our life, are mostly 'ethical' after all.
Why should we care for whatever conditions 'food' animals have before we butcher them.
They're just food, right:)

And why not eat all meat, humans included?
Meat is meat, right?

And why care for someone you don't know?
Do they?

Care about you.

But if you take those 'responsibilities' away from us, as I see it, we will be 'lower' than any other animal we ever will meet.
Most of what we do to each other is grounded in 'beliefs' not in 'facts'.
That's what makes us grow, and at times, 'shrink' horribly.

To be a human human is not easy:)

[demadone]

Adam and Eve weren't married and they had 2 sons.

Weird. Try to read the bible again.

Conscience came about as a result of rules.

My point exactly. The universe is made on rules. And you can't deny that. Rules that have been set.

The problem I have with religious people is the constant "It has to be this" or "There is no other way". The thing is it doesn't have to be this and there are other ways; ways that have been scientifically proven. But you refuse to accept that fact. Biblical words are re-interpreted in the light of scientific advances and the religious fraternity say that proves God exists. No, it doesn't. It just proves that the original wording was ambiguous and can mean many different things - or nothing at all.

Yet again a generalization. Not all religions stick to the old belief. Some do admit that they misinterpreted the bible. I don't argue the big bang for example or stick to the belief that everything was made in 7 days. The guys who try to argue with these are the ones that taint religion (another work of the devil).

Social evolution would not result into such love, kindness and morality. People don't have those tenancies naturally.

Science and religion (true) are very compatible and mutual. Science helps us to understand God better. Religion fills in the blanks where science can't go like death, life, the beginning and human nature. or even magic.

[Vern]

To be a human human is not easy:)

Hi yor_on; I have concluded that you are one. [] If not more.

Brotherly love is a human trait I suspect. I doubt that deities are the inspiration for it.

[yor_on]

So are you Vern
Most of us are i believe.

Sometimes we don't know it ourself:)
We just need to be tested.
And we all will get 'tested' at times.

So maybe there is a human 'arrow' too?
Getting us closer to 'humanity'.

When I was in Goa I meet this Indian guy who gave me a new angle to the problem.
He separated between what he called humans, and 'real humans'.
Sounds stupid perhaps, but there and then, it was quite a revelation for me.

As it made sense, we are all humans, but it takes something more to become a 'real human'.
Will or a need or something, but there is a difference, I think?

[demadone]

Wow ! I did not even know that magic is real. Shows how much I know

I live in Africa. Trust me, it is real. Not only the bunny out of hat type but sometimes really weird. You don't see it everyday and with the world's advancements it is getting less and less. But their are undeniable instances.

[yor_on]

First or 'second hand' instances demadone?

[Vern]

I live in Africa. Trust me, it is real. Not only the bunny out of hat type but sometimes really weird. You don't see it everyday and with the world's advancements it is getting less and less. But their are undeniable instances.

That reminds me of the time when I was standing out in an open field, when suddenly, quick as a flash, the sky clouded over and a great rumbling happened. A beautiful man figure appeared, young and strong looking just floating there before me. His voice was so strong and compelling that one immediately knew they must obey.

He said, "Design me a universe, engineer, and don't make it complicated. It shall consist of nothing save empty space and my electric and magnetic phenomena."

"Yes Sir," I said, dropping to my knees.

Then He was gone. I designed that universe. Then God moved all existing humanity into it, and here we are now.

Now; was that real? Or is there some experiment that anyone can devise that will show that I was just dreaming, and we can not possibly be in that universe that I designed for the Almighty?

[Don_1]

I BELIEVE OH GREAT ONE, I shall go forth and tell all mankind

[Vern]

 [] [] [] [] [] []

[lyner]

My point exactly. The universe is made on rules. And you can't deny that. Rules that have been set.

Demadone.
What do you mean by "set"? Just because things behave consistently doesn't have to imply that 'someone' designed it that way. Your's is only one possible interpretation of the situation.  It's many years since Scientists treated Laws of Science as Laws of God.

Religion fills in the blanks where science can't go like death, life, the beginning and human nature. or even magic.

Precisely. If you find it too hard to understand, then put it down to God. A little while ago, God was used to explain many more unknowns.