[LeeE]

...because God would never make himself obvious.

This is exactly why I don't believe in God/Gods.  Why should God/Gods not be obvious?  What is the benefit in this?

The only scenario I can see that fits this is that we are being tested for gullibility.  If God designed and created all of us, (s)he should be well aware of what we're capable of, so what's the point in testing?  Although now that I think about it again, perhaps it's a form of quality control where, having designed us to use reason, we're being checked to make sure it was installed and works properly.  []

[Vern]

Although now that I think about it again, perhaps it's a form of quality control where, having designed us to use reason, we're being checked to make sure it was installed and works properly.  wink

Yep; that's gotta be it. QC on a cosmic scale.

[_Stefan_]

I find it hard to accept that most of you are 'thinking' about it. To me it's more like you have reached the conclusion. I call it worship because you refuse to think outside the box of what you believe. God is rather obvious when you do. Also I'm not saying worship is sticking to a conclusion because that's the dangerous kind of worship. Sometimes we need to adjust. We adjust if all the dots connect and if there are fewer questions left to be answered.

The foresight exhibited in nature and it's beginning tell of a very intelligent being, which chaos does not.

You don't realise the irony of what you've just said. The only "dots" you have available to connect are equivalent to the ones you see here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_illusion

You don't have the evidence so please stop pretending you do.

[Vern]

Maybe the great almighty are computers put together by some past other-planetary-system beings who are trying to discover whether they might have been created by organic pollutants and are husbanding us to test whether that might be so [] There must be some great debates going on amongst them. If we only had access to their message boards ! []

[demadone]

Maybe the great almighty are computers put together by some past other-planetary-system beings who are trying to discover whether they might have been created by organic pollutants and are husbanding us to test whether that might be so There must be some great debates going on amongst them. If we only had access to their message boards !

Funny thing is, we are almost sure that we are not alone in the universe. People will even look for life on Mars, send signals to Saturn of all places. Scientist speculate that that life form is much higher than ours. But mention that the other form of life is what the bible calls angels and you immediately sound crazy. There is a more intelligent life form.

What makes Gold fish so beautiful if they were not created for our joy? Why are terriers so funny to look at?

This is exactly why I don't believe in God/Gods.  Why should God/Gods not be obvious?  What is the benefit in this?

For the same reason we want people to like us for what we are and not just for what we can give them. We all live something for people to find out as they get to know us better. Guys the bible said would be getting worse and worse before he is finally revealed. You can see for yourselves how bad things are getting. Subtly but truly.

[BenV]

What makes Gold fish so beautiful if they were not created for our joy? Why are terriers so funny to look at?

As I understand it, we bred both of those sub-species for our own purposes, though you do get some very beautiful fish...

Guys the bible said would be getting worse and worse before he is finally revealed. You can see for yourselves how bad things are getting. Subtly but truly.

Worse than the middle ages? Really?

[dentstudent]

What makes Gold fish so beautiful if they were not created for our joy?

This is one of the most arrogant statements I think that I've seen for a long time. What - it's all about YOU is it, and everything has been "made" so it's nice for YOU to look at? It doesn't get much more egocentric than that, surely?

[demadone]

This is one of the most arrogant statements I think that I've seen for a long time. What - it's all about YOU is it, and everything has been "made" so it's nice for YOU to look at? It doesn't get much more egocentric than that, surely?

Sorry if I sounded offensive but I really think they are pleasant to look at. And no evolution explains that.

Worse than the middle ages? Really?

Yes really. I don't think they had nuclear weapons, suicide bombers. And the people today are getting worse. Try not to compare to the middle ages but to what was there just 10 years ago. I don't know where you guys live but I know people are colder in your neighborhood too.

[BenV]

Worse than the middle ages? Really?

Yes really. I don't think they had nuclear weapons, suicide bombers. And the people today are getting worse. Try not to compare to the middle ages but to what was there just 10 years ago. I don't know where you guys live but I know people are colder in your neighborhood too.

Why should we compare to 10 years ago? You said:

Guys the bible said would be getting worse and worse before he is finally revealed. You can see for yourselves how bad things are getting. Subtly but truly.

For that comment to be anything but nonsense, we need to consider things since the bible was written, don't we?

Things are far better now for most people than they have been at almost any time since the bible was written - just because we hark back to the 'good old days' doesn't mean that things are genuinely worse now.  I for one am decidedly glad I live here and now rather than in the middle ages.

[lyner]

This is one of the most arrogant statements I think that I've seen for a long time. What - it's all about YOU is it, and everything has been "made" so it's nice for YOU to look at? It doesn't get much more egocentric than that, surely?

Sorry if I sounded offensive but I really think they are pleasant to look at. And no evolution explains that.

I think the link may be too hard for you to understand. There are plenty of evolutionary advantages in developing an aesthetic. It's all a part of an evolved culture.
There is no 'obvious' reason why it should be put down to some Zookeeper making our cages pleasant.

[Vern]

There is no 'obvious' reason why it should be put down to some Zookeeper making our cages pleasant.

Wow; I like that! I hadn't thought of the Great Almighty as a zoo keeper before. But that does sum up the subject comment very well.

[lyner]

Anthropomorphism may be forgiven when dealing with the 'lower' animals or even with inanimate systems but many 'believers' have the nerve to do it with their God too. That always strikes me as the height of presumption.

[LeeE]

This is exactly why I don't believe in God/Gods.  Why should God/Gods not be obvious?  What is the benefit in this?

For the same reason we want people to like us for what we are and not just for what we can give them.

How are people going to know what you are, to like you for yourself, if you're not obvious but instead obscure yourself with ambiguity and uncertainty?

[demadone]

Things are far better now for most people than they have been at almost any time since the bible was written - just because we hark back to the 'good old days' doesn't mean that things are genuinely worse now.  I for one am decidedly glad I live here and now rather than in the middle ages.

By worse I was referring to :

...in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power...
2Tim 3

You must admit that everywhere you look people are like that unless you are so young you haven't noticed people change. Technology may have made life a bit better but not things are going down-hill.

...For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress...

Even the frequency of natural phenomena is increasing.

..[people in] anguish, not knowing the way out... while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers... will be shaken.

I remember Iraq when reading this, kids afraid even to go to the market because of suicide bombers or people left stranded due the financial crisis.

Things maybe o.k for some but we shouldn't be disregarding those in problems.

[demadone]

Anthropomorphism may be forgiven when dealing with the 'lower' animals or even with inanimate systems but many 'believers' have the nerve to do it with their God too. That always strikes me as the height of presumption.

And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him
Genesis 1

Presumptuousness is exhibited when man imagines himself to be the supreme intelligence of the universe when he can't even understand a wink about the structure of his own brain. No hard insults meant towards neurologists.

If there is any case for Anthropomorphism here then humans are ''lower' animals'.

[_Stefan_]

Things are far better now for most people than they have been at almost any time since the bible was written - just because we hark back to the 'good old days' doesn't mean that things are genuinely worse now.  I for one am decidedly glad I live here and now rather than in the middle ages.

By worse I was referring to :

...in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power...
2Tim 3

You must admit that everywhere you look people are like that unless you are so young you haven't noticed people change. Technology may have made life a bit better but not things are going down-hill.

People have always been that way. Don't be silly.

...For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress...

Even the frequency of natural phenomena is increasing.

You're just making stuff up. Where is the evidence that these disasters are becoming significantly more frequent? The only reason you're saying this is because you live now and notice it.

..[people in] anguish, not knowing the way out... while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers... will be shaken.

I remember Iraq when reading this, kids afraid even to go to the market because of suicide bombers or people left stranded due the financial crisis.

Things maybe o.k for some but we shouldn't be disregarding those in problems.

Those other places where people are suffering tend to be developing countries. They are clear examples of the conditions people experienced in pre-1st world society, and argue against your idealist view of "it's worse now than it used to be".

[demadone]

You're just making stuff up. Where is the evidence that these disasters are becoming significantly more frequent? The only reason you're saying this is because you live now and notice it.

http://maps.grida.no/go/graphic/trends-in-natural-disasters

I thought this was obvious. Note also that the world wars also fall under these time of the end. Not to mention that wars after these took even more lives.

[demadone]

Some new forms of disasters:

AIDS, Bird Flu, Spanish Influenza, Terrorists, World wars, Nuclear proliferation, global warming and the list goes on. I am sure you know what I mean.

[_Stefan_]

Did you read what the linked page said? The only clear information the graph shows is an increase in the number of disasters reported due to population growth and development. The data is also only from 1900s onwards, a fraction of the time over which geological disasters have been occurring.

As to the rest: viruses have always plagued humans; humans have always performed hostile acts towards others, and terrorists are actually not a major cause of death; Climate change is the only phenomenon which can even remotely fit your criteria, but it hardly promotes your cause, because the earth has experienced multiple dramatic climate fluctuations before.

There is no such thing as "the good old days". You are temporally biased. You have no argument.

[demadone]

People have always been that way. Don't be silly.

Increase in the following is undeniable :
Terrorism
Immorality (including homosexuality, infidelity, pornography industry etc)
Drug abuse
Lark of regard for others

yet again I'm sure you can finish off the list yourself.

I hope are not too sidetracked from what we started talking about. i.e the origin of matter.