[demografx]

what do you get if you cross and atheist and a Jehovah's witness?
Someone who knocks on your door for no reason.

Very good, Paul.

Have you heard about the insomniac who is agnostic and dyslexic?

Stays up all night wondering whether there really is a dog.

[Astronomer_FB]

You guys are forgetting the Qu'ran Muslims have so much proof of the book being right and prooving God or Allah.  It has signs of the day of judgment and it has not been wrong yet it told of the mongols attacking the Islamic empire and then making peace with them.  Then it says that the sun will rise on the west.  Scientist are now seeing that the earth is starting to slowly slow down and eventually it will stop and go the other way.  Mathematically I don't think you can prove God is real with numbers. 

By the way for the christians I was wondering I do not believe you guys have the original bible so how do you refer back to the original and make sure nothing is being messed with because in history there have been corrupt christian leader that could have tampered the bible and noone has an original to say "wait someone messed with the bible.".  Why are there so many kinds of christians , why when I ask someone what religon they are they say something besides christianity?

[Astronomer_FB]

It could just as easily be interpreted as me getting my washing back from the laundry and finding that I haven't lost a sock.

It says in clear terms that matter resulted from energy. No 2 ways about it.

The bible doesn't talk about science, it sticks to allusion, which is so open to interpretation as to make it meaningless in any absolute sense.  Incidentally, both the ancient Greeks and Asian Indians thought that the Earth was spherical.

You must have heard interpretations from guys who don't really know the bible. About Indians, it is common knowledge that they believed in an elephant with a turtle on it's back on whose back was the earth. Even just 500 years ago people were afraid of falling over the edge. And Philosophy was quite hot then.

The difference between religion and science is that religion is all about belief, and furthermore, it requires a lack of proof; when you have proof you have knowledge and belief becomes redundant.  Science, on the other hand is all about knowledge, and it seeks proof.  Be careful not to confuse knowledge and belief; they are mutually exclusive.

Not true

The lack of evidence for one.

You exist as proof. Singularity if it existed must have come from somewhere. Isaiah explains where.

Well the bible does not really have proof of its self being right or holy even though I do believe some of it is right but the Qu'ran does have eye witnesses of its holiness and the miracles of its time. They are called Hadiths look them up they are quotes from the time of prophet Mohamed(pbuh).
and so noone gets it mixed up Muslims do believe in Jesus  (pbuh).

[lyner]

I have seen many Magic Tricks and I saw what I saw. The trick worked for me. That doesn't mean that there really was levitation and teleportation. Witnesses (especially in the dim and distant past) are actually worth zilch as a 'proof' of anything.
Old Moore's Almamanac is full of 'predictions', as are Astrologers' statements. If you are inventive enough, then you can link them to subsequent events but how often do they predict Derby winners of the state of the Stock Exchange? Are they all driving round in posher cars since the Credit Crunch arrived? Why didn't they know about it?
To prove something as important as the existence of a God it  would be necessary to do those same 'miracles' on demand and under laboratory conditions.
Why do you guys not just accept that you have faith and that that is enough for you?
I guess, if you are a Muslim, you would claim that the Koran is the right version and the others got it wrong. That's understandable. But show me a passage in that document which accurately predicts a modern event with complete lack of ambiguity.

[demadone]

there are so many contradictions between the god concept and what is already understood about the physics of the universe.

It would be great to hear some examples Stef.

You have not demonstrated this to be true. You can hardly say that the net amount of ills experienced by each person per unit of time has increased since thousands of years ago. Give it up already.

That's because you live in Australia. If you lived here or most other places in the world your opinion would be very different. You haven't seen 10 year olds begging in streets to feed 3 younger sibling orphans of parents who have died of AIDS. Or 90% unemployment cases as in Zimbabwe. Do you know what their inflation rate is? Most of you are arguing facts just because you are doing fine. It's a pity that guys from less developed countries are not on this discussion forum. You would get a different picture.

So if we were talking average pains per person, it may not be fair to compare with the past but maybe to check the current pains in the light of what the current state of people should be. What comes to mind when you hear words like Nazi, Darfur, Rwanda, Hiroshima? If you can try to picture yourself there or your family members then you may get a picture that these are serious matters. We face the danger of accepting such things as normal...of growing insensitive to the pains of others.

[lyner]

demadone

You haven't seen 10 year olds begging in streets to feed 3 younger sibling orphans of parents who have died of AIDS. Or 90% unemployment cases as in Zimbabwe.

Such situations have existed since the year dot - they were not written about because they were just not remarkable OR, perhaps, because people in 'your' wonderful past ages just didn't care. At least some people care nowadays. Basically your comparisons are meaningless because they are not  fair tests in the Scientific sense. Your observation / measurement systems are not comparable so neither are the results.

I believe that the Christians were pretty vile to Muslims during the Crusades. Would you say they were any better than they are now?

[Astronomer_FB]

I have seen many Magic Tricks and I saw what I saw. The trick worked for me. That doesn't mean that there really was levitation and teleportation. Witnesses (especially in the dim and distant past) are actually worth zilch as a 'proof' of anything.
Old Moore's Almamanac is full of 'predictions', as are Astrologers' statements. If you are inventive enough, then you can link them to subsequent events but how often do they predict Derby winners of the state of the Stock Exchange? Are they all driving round in posher cars since the Credit Crunch arrived? Why didn't they know about it?
To prove something as important as the existence of a God it  would be necessary to do those same 'miracles' on demand and under laboratory conditions.
Why do you guys not just accept that you have faith and that that is enough for you?
I guess, if you are a Muslim, you would claim that the Koran is the right version and the others got it wrong. That's understandable. But show me a passage in that document which accurately predicts a modern event with complete lack of ambiguity.

OK Muslims do believe in some of the bible but there had been so much corruption God made another and final book . For modern predictions Qu'ran said that there would be a time where premarriagle sex and there would be disease with it which is Aids HIV. Another is time of global crisis in the economy.us  One more off the top of my head is Muslims not following the right path [ The terriost and eveyday muslims not following the teachings of the Qu'ran or the word of the Prophet Mohammad pbuh]

[BenV]

For modern predictions Qu'ran said that there would be a time where premarriagle sex and there would be disease with it which is Aids HIV.

Which affects a great deal of married, monogamous, faithful people worldwide.

If you can discount the bible, which it seems you can, then why not the Qu'ran?  Do you see any double standard there?

[Astronomer_FB]

For modern predictions Qu'ran said that there would be a time where premarriagle sex and there would be disease with it which is Aids HIV.

Which affects a great deal of married, monogamous, faithful people worldwide.

If you can discount the bible, which it seems you can, then why not the Qu'ran?  Do you see any double standard there?

To tell you the truth I do not thin, it is wrong.  Now I step back and look back what doesn't make sense and it all does, tell me what you see is wrong in the book I will not be offended.  But almost everyone now is fearful of gettimg AIDS ask anyone who just had unmariagle sex they worry for pregancy and sti this because of the past with prostitutes and many different lovers and leaving them.

[demadone]

Such situations have existed since the year dot - they were not written about because they were just not remarkable OR, perhaps, because people in 'your' wonderful past ages just didn't care. At least some people care nowadays.

I believe that the Christians were pretty vile to Muslims during the Crusades. Would you say they were any better than they are now?

That is true. Entire nations and empires have experienced their final days of existence. Only a few generations ago mighty Indian nations roamed the plains of the western United States, living a simple nomadic life. But now they are gone, stamped out of existence by the westward-moving white men.

The “last days” here spoken of in the Bible are obviously an important period in history that would be marked by unusual distress. Yet, the Bible shows that, in spite of the evidence that the “last days” were at hand, people would not believe it. Instead, they would ridicule: 'All things are continuing as they always have been.'

When Mount Vesuvius was sending forth warnings in 79 AD, the majority of people in the city of Pompeii did not heed. While a few left the city at the mountain’s first outburst, many Pompeians—chiefly the wealthy—refused to abandon precious homes and possessions and took shelter, hoping the horror would pass. The decision cost them their lives. They realized that things were not right, yet they did not flee. How foolish! Rather than make a similar mistake, we today should heed the warning of the end’s approach.

[_Stefan_]

WOW. You can't wait for the world to end. You see decline everywhere when there's really none.

[demadone]

Such situations have existed since the year dot - they were not written about because they were just not remarkable OR, perhaps, because people in 'your' wonderful past ages just didn't care. At least some people care nowadays.

I believe that the Christians were pretty vile to Muslims during the Crusades. Would you say they were any better than they are now?

That is true. Entire nations and empires have experienced their final days of existence. Only a few generations ago mighty Indian nations roamed the plains of the western United States, living a simple nomadic life. But now they are gone, stamped out of existence by the westward-moving white men.

The “last days” here spoken of in the Bible are obviously an important period in history that would be marked by unusual distress. Yet, the Bible shows that, in spite of the evidence that the “last days” were at hand, people would not believe it. Instead, they would ridicule: 'All things are continuing as they always have been.'

When Mount Vesuvius was sending forth warnings in 79 AD, the majority of people in the city of Pompeii did not heed. While a few left the city at the mountain’s first outburst, many Pompeians—chiefly the wealthy—refused to abandon precious homes and possessions and took shelter, hoping the horror would pass. The decision cost them their lives. They realized that things were not right, yet they did not flee. How foolish! Rather than make a similar mistake, we today should heed the warning of the end’s approach.

[demadone]

Stefan you never came back with those examples I requested

[demadone]

WOW. You can't wait for the world to end. You see decline everywhere when there's really none.

the Bible shows that, in spite of the evidence that the “last days” were at hand, people would not believe it. Instead, they would ridicule: 'All things are continuing as they always have been.'

Actually this discussion has been dragging on because of something I mentioned along the thread that we are living in the last days.
Can't wait to take a different turn in this discussion. We are discussing the existence of a creator.

[_Stefan_]

The fact that you need to ask for examples means that you are ignorant of how science works and/or have not read the bible. Just open up to almost any page where the topic is God and you'll see the contradictions between God and reality.

[BenV]

Can't wait to take a different turn in this discussion. We are discussing the existence of a creator.

Well, we were discussing the absence of mathematical proof of the existence of god.

You think there is a god, I do not.  You cannot prove it to me, and I cannot disprove it to you.

I think the burden of proof is on you to prove your fairy exists, you feel it's my responsibility to prove it doesn't.

Where is this going to get us?

Why don't we just debate the existence of elves?

[_Stefan_]

This blog entry says something about the lack of evidence for god: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/effectively_non-existent.php

[lyner]

WOW. You can't wait for the world to end. You see decline everywhere when there's really none.

the Bible shows that, in spite of the evidence that the “last days” were at hand, people would not believe it. Instead, they would ridicule: 'All things are continuing as they always have been.'

Actually this discussion has been dragging on because of something I mentioned along the thread that we are living in the last days.
Can't wait to take a different turn in this discussion. We are discussing the existence of a creator.

I'm afraid that a lame argument of yours turned round and bit you. Of course the notion of 'last days' is a nonsense one. We've had so many false endings to the World that it's got boring - and we're still here.
Perception of the past follows the inverse square law if one lacks rigour in one's analysis.
And we're actually looking for a "Mathematical Proof". Let's be having one then.

[latebind]

My thinking...

In my opinion
maths is objective, God is subjective,quite hard to mix the two directly...
Maths probably can't prove god, the same as it can't prove my favourite color is red.

On the other hand
If it is possible, it would probably happen through music. Maths is very tightly linked to music and music is linked to our emotions, and our emotions are linked to our soul.

[Don_1]

I have two souls, one on each shoe........ Oh! and The Beatles 'Rubber Soul'  .........

And, of course, not forgetting my ar

What did I say? What did I say?

I was only going to say Let me say it will you, you, why you.....