Is perpetual motion impossible?

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Offline Don_1

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« on: 09/09/2008 11:02:44 »
Is perpetual motion a physical impossibility?
« Last Edit: 11/09/2008 23:23:53 by chris »
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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blakestyger

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Re: Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #1 on: 09/09/2008 11:42:59 »
Yes - everything has to be paid for!

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #2 on: 12/11/2008 01:07:09 »
Is perpetual motion a physical impossibility?

 No due to impossibilities are the limitation of the imagination, and the freedom of the mind is the release of our limitations. That is the reason we have progressed as far as we have. So never say never. [8D]
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline dentstudent

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #3 on: 12/11/2008 08:15:41 »
Is perpetual motion a physical impossibility?

 No due to impossibilities are the limitation of the imagination, and the freedom of the mind is the release of our limitations. That is the reason we have progressed as far as we have. So never say never. [8D]

PM is completely impossible. Period. Imagination has nothing to do with it.

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Offline BenV

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #4 on: 12/11/2008 08:40:35 »
It's definitely possible, provided there is a perpetual energy source...

...but I guess that's not really what you mean.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 08:45:11 by BenV »

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Offline dentstudent

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #5 on: 12/11/2008 08:50:27 »
It's definitely possible, provided there is a perpetual energy source...

...but I guess that's not really what you mean.

Indeed.

PM deals with a closed system. With a perpetual energy source, the system is not closed, and so falls outside the scope of PM.

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #6 on: 12/11/2008 13:30:07 »



PM is completely impossible. Period. Imagination has nothing to do with it.
dentstudent

That is the same argument for flight in the past. Thus the limitation.

 This is how it can be done. "Force reaction manipulation" Gravity is a force and it has reactions to everything. You have to ask and also pay attention on how it reacts to each and everything in nature and you may see how it can be manipulated. Just that simple in words, but not so in understanding. This is due to disbelief because of our teachings. This is not to knock our teachings for without our teachings we would still be walking. But we should never use our teachings as absolutes, for then it tends to be treated as a religion.


With out a dream, there is no vision.

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Offline dentstudent

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #7 on: 12/11/2008 13:33:30 »



PM is completely impossible. Period. Imagination has nothing to do with it.
dentstudent

That is the same argument for flight in the past. Thus the limitation.

 

Not really - flight didn't require the re-writing of all laws of physics and maths known to man.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #8 on: 12/11/2008 13:45:55 »

Not really - flight didn't require the re-writing of all laws of physics and maths known to man.

No, but there was a newer understanding of our physical laws, and of course due to other discoveries Quantum theory came into existence to correct the problems with laws of physics as well. Our understanding of the laws of physics is the first to change, yet may not truly change the laws at all. Perpetual motion may turn out to be just another change in our understanding.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline dentstudent

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #9 on: 12/11/2008 14:16:14 »
Ah, yes, quantum theory. It's always a big help.

I know nothing of QT, so I'm not going to comment on it. I'm sure that there are others who are well-capable of commenting on this though...

There are various immutable laws such as the first and second laws of thermodynamics which are always violated in apparent PM machines. It is not possible to create energy from nothing, and it is not possible to transfer energy from one source to another in a closed system without loss.

How do you propose to use gravity in your PM machine?

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #10 on: 12/11/2008 14:33:56 »

How do you propose to use gravity in your PM machine?


 A simple collection of natural effects, using leverage control of natural movement. Thus will not break the laws of physics, but will add a new understanding. When you add the laws of leverage to a repeating movement. You only have to overcome the laws of balance. The term of law in the the physical world, is only an understanding of what we know to be true at the time.

Here is someone to consider when talking about the laws of physics.
__________________________________________________________________

“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 14:38:58 by AB Hammer »
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline dentstudent

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #11 on: 12/11/2008 14:42:01 »
You "only" have to overcome the laws of balance, then?

We'll be millionaires by Christmas!

Which natural effects, what levers and what natural movement? And which understanding? And whose?

And when?

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #12 on: 12/11/2008 15:39:19 »
You "only" have to overcome the laws of balance, then?

We'll be millionaires by Christmas!

Which natural effects, what levers and what natural movement? And which understanding? And whose?

And when?

 All you have to do is keep it unbalanced, and to tell you how now, would be showing before I and those I work with are ready. As for quick rich thoughts, they are a distraction to the goal and are to be avoided. Once done the real work begins and is not a time to sit on your laurels.  [;)]
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #13 on: 12/11/2008 19:10:30 »
To 'keep it unbalanced' would need the continual input of energy in some form. That's not perpetual motion, it's a normal 'machine'.
There is no process which transfers energy and which does not use energy up.
The nearest things to perpetual motion is superconductivity and planetary orbits around long dead stars where there is no trace of residual atmosphere in the system. You can't get energy out of either of those without slowing them down.

 Put your money where your mouth is and build one.
Better still, send the money to charity; at least it will do some good that way.

There is no point in being a heroic figure in the face of an unbending Science Establishment. Just learn about the problem in depth and you will see that it is a proverbial bummer.

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #14 on: 12/11/2008 20:37:55 »
sophiecentaur


 A clever arrangement of weights and levers that react to the spin to keep off balance. Each reaction inside the wheel falls with in the boundaries of known physics. But inside the wheel they become repetitive by there position, which keeps the the wheel from balancing out. From this description, how can you claim it to be breaking any laws of physics?

I do put my money where my mouth is, and I don't ask for money from others either. I am with an honest belief of possibilities only and I like it as a hobby.

You said an unbending Science Establishment. All I can say is that is sad, for only an open mind can progress.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #15 on: 12/11/2008 22:31:51 »
You can believe what you like but can you deliver?
No one else ever has.
There are some very well established and fundamental laws which you would have to 'disprove' if your system were really to work.
Just one small detail - you have something spinning? Is there no friction on the bearings? The motor industry would like some of those.
Your description contains so little detail that it is impossible to point out the flaws - apart from the friction.
Greater minds than your have tried and failed - before the great minds who followed came to the conclusion involving the fundamental reasons why it can't work.
Send us a picture of it working.

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All I can say is that is sad, for only an open mind can progress
Then you must open yours to the knowledge of others.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 22:36:25 by sophiecentaur »

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Offline Flyberius

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #16 on: 12/11/2008 22:45:54 »
Does any of what he said make sense?

Its bananas.

PS.

And there are open minds out there, and they do progress. Your oblivious to the huge scientific progression in the last 100 years and the fact that rate of progression is growing. I read somewhere in that we could use crazy dimensional mirrors to get almost perpetual energy but that is just a "what if?" scenario from what I could tell. In fact it was in new scientist. So it was probably bs.
« Last Edit: 12/11/2008 22:54:17 by Flyberius »

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #17 on: 12/11/2008 23:54:56 »
Greetings Flyberius

 Sorry but it was sophiecentaur who said (unbending Science Establishment) which can be translated to closed minded. and that is how I took it.

 This is my question for anybody who can answer it.
If you have devices that react to all physical laws as expected, and they are added together and they have a reaction of perpetuation these actions by there positioning of rotation. How can this overall device be breaking any physical laws?

And this I will post again and as often as I may have to.
___________________________________________________________
“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #18 on: 13/11/2008 17:06:21 »
My 'unbending establishment' phrase was meant to be ironic! I don't think it is but I was replying to a sentiment which implied that someone might feel they were battling against one.

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If you have devices that react to all physical laws as expected, and they are added together and they have a reaction of perpetuation these actions by there positioning of rotation. How can this overall device be breaking any physical laws?
I can guarantee that, if you look at the device in detail (scrupulous detail - not just advertiser's blurb) you will find the flaw. There will be no conflict with the Physical Laws and it just won't work as the guy claims it will.
I get the impression that you are not the inventor of this system, ABH, so, despite having a romantic leaning towards the notion, you don't really know how it is supposed to work.
I can appreciate how attractive it may sound but, like death and taxes, entropy is always with us and  increasing all the time.

I should be very surprised if I, or another contributor, couldn't spot the flaw if the details were published. I doubt 'they' would risk publishing details but the reason they would give would be 'commercial' not the real 'smoke and mirrors' and 'we want your money' reason. They are lying.

With luck, they will take me to court and we can all hear the evidence.

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #19 on: 13/11/2008 18:00:38 »
sophiecentaur

Quote

My 'unbending establishment' phrase was meant to be ironic! I don't think it is but I was replying to a sentiment which implied that someone might feel they were battling against one.

 That is a fair description.

 But you are wrong, I am the inventor, but I also have joint projects with others as well. All and all it looks like 3 possible runners 2 are solely mine and the other belongs to our group which will remain unnamed. The only reason I am on the net is I am recovering from namoneya and I can't finish my armour work which has to be done before I can finish my wheels. My living come first. But my confidence is high for all my test that I do before building I am getting a 20% to 25% gain in positive overbalance. After building 30+ wheels and designing around 400 wheels. I have a very good idea what to expect. I have had 3 near runners and one nearly took off my thumb nail while I was trying to adjust the stand. It was tapping the side of it as it was spinning about 60rpm at the time. It had only a slight slowing which was hard to detect by eye. But that one was still a non runner.


With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #20 on: 13/11/2008 18:56:26 »
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But you are wrong, I am the inventor
My apologies.
So it must be the romance that attracts you.
May I ask what bearings your wheels will be rotating on? Where will the energy come from to overcome the friction?
'Hard to detect by eye' is infinitely (I mean that literally)  far from 'perpetual'.
You must appreciate that every wheel in your machine that is turning must be working against friction - transferring Energy. This energy has to come from somewhere. This can only be in the form of Kinetic Energy of the movement in the device. Where else?

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #21 on: 13/11/2008 21:07:12 »
When people try for perpetual motion, All to often they try to make these little devices using ounces instead of pounds, Even if they have a good idea the friction of the bearing or simple poor construction sometimes makes it where they won't even get a reaction and they give up. Good construction is important, as well as good bearings. The use of magnetic bearings and vacuum chambers are not necessary, they are extreme.
 Yes friction is a concern at all times. Just think a 100 lb of shifting weight in a wheel with 20% advantage. This means continuous shifting 10 lbs of falling energy effect. This will be more than enough to overcome any friction you can imagine with excess energy movement. Kinetic energy is your friend in this game. Here is a kinetic overbalance test that I posted on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhskB-0SjKI

Without the overbalance the wheel once spun (even if you spun it hard) you could not get more than 2 minutes run time, but with the overbalance shown as spun would run for close to 6 minutes. This is one of many test that I do preparing for working on a wheel.

You stated
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So it must be the romance that attracts you.

I was challenged by my neighbor when he learned that I have never failed in figuring out any mechanical problem. I didn't have to take the challenge but I looked into it for about a week and took the challenge. Besides I built a magnet wheel back in 1974 for a school project. It jerked around for a 1 1/2 days before it tore out the middle. 

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You must appreciate that every wheel in your machine that is turning must be working against friction - transferring Energy. This energy has to come from somewhere. This can only be in the form of Kinetic Energy of the movement in the device. Where else?

But I never said wheels in it, there are leavers weights ect. But you are correct that every movement is a friction, so you have to overcome it, it is expected.
 Now to know if you truly have a runner by eye. It will speed up and depending on the design without a load added it can then start to serge due to overcoming the inner shifting speeds. Not to mention most likely will start on its own.

I hope this answers you questions.

Alan
 
 
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #22 on: 13/11/2008 21:38:29 »
Anything that falls needs to be raised up again, I expect. Where will the extra energy come from after the friction has taken some away?

one and a half days is good for your machine but 'perpetual'?
that includes one and a half weeks, one and a half months, one and a half . . . .

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #23 on: 13/11/2008 23:44:28 »
sophiecentaur
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Anything that falls needs to be raised up again, I expect. Where will the extra energy come from after the friction has taken some away?

Well that is the trick isn't it. [;D]

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one and a half days is good for your machine but 'perpetual'?
that includes one and a half weeks, one and a half months, one and a half . . . .

I agree, at least until it breaks down (due to wear and tear),or something or someone stops it.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #24 on: 14/11/2008 00:09:26 »
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Well that is the trick isn't it
The real world doesn't work with tricks.
Without an energy source it will slow down. No question.
Would you like a small wager - say $500?

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #25 on: 14/11/2008 00:27:28 »
sophiecentaur

LOL $500? Pounds or US dollars? I will have to check on legalities, as well as the rules on the forum before I agree. I am finding this interesting for I don't even go to casinos.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #26 on: 14/11/2008 02:50:59 »
sophiecentaur

I do believe a wager is for gain or loss so it falls into this category. So sorry but I must decline.

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #27 on: 14/11/2008 08:28:23 »
I would say yes, perpetual motion is a distinct possibility. Evidence the perpetual life on earth, organic machinery appears to have discovered it’s mechanism.

The perpetual water cycle.

The perpetual Atlantic conveyor system.

The perpetual evolution of the planets.

The perpetual motion of the planets and stars.

The human heart. Everyone an engine and yet the person that has one beating in their chest does not believe in perpetual motion.

One could argue that they will eventually transform into another body or decay into the universe. Which is arguably perpetual stability and therefore does not disprove perpetual motion as a possibility.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline dentstudent

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #28 on: 14/11/2008 08:46:55 »
Andrew. PM has to be a closed system to be truly perpetual. Part of the water cycle is driven by the sun – this is not perpetual – the sun will “die” and also it is not a closed system. The Atlantic conveyor system is driven partly by the sun, so again is not perpetual. I’m not sure what you mean by the perpetual evolution of the planets, but evolution is not a “force” and so I think falls outside the argument. The “perpetual” movement of stars and planets – there are many forces still acting on them and are not part of a closed system. The human heart stops beating when you’re dead. That is not perpetual. It is also supplied by energy for your entire lifetime, and so is not a closed system.

I don’t “believe” in PM in the same way that I don’t “believe” in god (and I hope that that does not reduce this thread to yet another "Is there a god" conversation). There is no evidence at all for the existence of either. If someone produced something that could not be explained by current laws, then of course it would be worthy of a great deal of attention, but “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” (Carl Sagan). We're waiting......

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #29 on: 14/11/2008 12:58:09 »
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I do believe a wager is for gain or loss so it falls into this category. So sorry but I must decline.
Yes of course. A wager is not suited to the context of a Forum like this. But my point was that I WOULD bet any money.

AKF: The definition of Perpetual, in this context, at least,  is 'for ever' and with no other contributions.
Three score years and ten, for a heart is far from perpetual. Neither are the other examples you give.
As I said earlier "A long time is not for ever"
All the systems you refer to (plus ABH's) involve energy loss or energy input so they are not perpetual. You know perfectly well that the systems you quote 'use' energy, either from the Sun, by losing Potential Energy or from nuclear reactions.
Introducing diversions from the main point may be fun but it doesn't really advance the argument, does it? (We've been here before).
Why not read about the Perpetual Motion Issue, throughout the ages? I'm sure Google will help.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #30 on: 14/11/2008 14:35:34 »
Ah yes sophiecentaur

 We now get into the intellectual phase now.
1. Is the machine perpetual? or is the motion perpetual?
2. When something is destroyed, is it truly destroyed or just changed?

 Every thing goes through a change, which means change is perpetual. Now the wear and tear of a devices which can cause a change in a motion which can make a device fail. But the original motion design that is guided by the device is perpetual and will remain perpetual until the material changes. So you have to look at it as, if there is no change in the device the motion is and will remain perpetual. Thus once the machine is built, perpetual motion is proved.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #31 on: 14/11/2008 14:40:10 »
Have the rules changed for PM over the many years it has been debated? Right from the beginning did the people postulating it state that the machine must be indestructible, in a closed unit and use no power source whatsoever?
Does a perpetual Motion machine have to run to infinity in order to qualify? If so who will be around to measure it? And who stated the rules and when?

A human heart expires, another heart is born, the human engine self perpetuates. Just as a sun grows cold and another sun ignites.

The rules remind me of a boxer, who is never allowed to make contact with his opponent, can’t look at him or converse with him, must not breath on him or even be in the same room as him yet must some how find a way to win the fight.

Take away the rules and let the fight begin.



Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline rosy

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #32 on: 14/11/2008 15:39:06 »
Andrew:
Yes. The definition of "perpetual motion" conventionally considered when asserting that "perpetual motion is not possible" is that it must be a system which continues to move forever without adding energy to the system and which therefore must either (a) have no frictional losses at all or (b) must be generating energy internally from nowhere. Since the question was "Is perpetual motion impossible" it is reasonable to assume that this is the definition under discussion here.

It's worth noting that any perpetual motion machine someone claims to have made (and it happens an awful lot) is almost always also a "free energy machine", from which energy can be extracted to "power whole cities" and so on ad tedium. This is always a class (b) machine since the extraction of energy from the system means that frictionlessness is not enough.

AB Hammer seems to be describing a machine which wears out. Wearing out necessarily implies friction and so fricitonal losses of energy. So (a) doesn't apply. Thus such a machine must generate energy out of nowhere. Requires re-writing all the scientific models as we understand them (no, really, all of them) but hey, this is science and if the model's wrong we refine it until it fits the new data. However... since the evidence for the rest of the consequences of thermodynamics stacks up pretty well I'm not going to go out of my way to find out more about any machine that claims perpetual motion.

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #33 on: 14/11/2008 15:43:03 »
Precisely, AKF.
The rules make it impossible to make one.
It would be indestructible, of course, it could not wear out - no friction - and would not be damaged by any external influence - no energy input.
The problem is that people try to get around the rules without knowing the are doing so.
Your particular ideas are just not in the 'set' which is 'perpetual motion machines'.

rosy beat me to the post.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #34 on: 14/11/2008 16:03:08 »
sophiecentaur

 Maybe you should say a God is impossible and you can not build a God. For a God would be perpetual.

 Maybe a perpetual motion machine that runs on gravity should be called a force to energy converter. Which may very well be the best description.IMO

 Or how about this an over unity friction motor of extrema efficiency.

 Of course we can say that all is perpetual for you can not destroy energy, it can only change. So that would make it perpetual as well.

This is probably one reason why, Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947 made this statment.

Quote
“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”



 
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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« Reply #35 on: 14/11/2008 16:25:08 »
Is anyone's 'god' a machine?

"running on gravity" implies transfer of energy. To use the gravity, something has to fall through a distance.
Work done = force times distance
That's an energy input.

Do you have a tube of negative friction grease, then?

Your other statements don't refer to Perpetually Moving Machines, one of which you are claiming to be constructing.  Just stick to the one issue at a time and astound us all with a perpetual machine in the accepted sense of the word.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #36 on: 14/11/2008 16:38:21 »

"running on gravity" implies transfer of energy. To use the gravity, something has to fall through a distance.
Work done = force times distance
That's an energy input.


Then you will have to say that gravity is an energy. But we are taught that it is a force. Thus I like the term force to energy converter.

This is the reason that I say it will break no so called laws of physics but a need for a newer understanding.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #37 on: 14/11/2008 18:44:39 »
For the record. I will believe in a PM machine when I see one for myself.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #38 on: 14/11/2008 22:02:39 »
For the record. I will believe in a PM machine when I see one for myself.

 That is a proper attitude for this case, but would the media be close enough for you?

This is what science wants as proof.

Quote
perpetual motion
a system wherein the item in question consumes and outputs at least 100% of its energy constantly, sustaining no net loss as a result of the laws of thermodynamics. 
From; The Language of Science - Dictionary and Research Guide

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Impossible is more a hallmark of pseudoscience than of true science.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline Andrew K Fletcher

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #39 on: 15/11/2008 08:57:43 »
Alan, the media would never be proof for me, their track record is somewhat less than perfect. I would have to see it and understand it completely before accepting it. This is my nature; I do not believe anything until completely satisfied there is no other logical explanation. Theories like the Big Bang, God. Black Holes and the like fall into the same un-proven category. But are safer for the propagators.

Who can go out there and prove them one way or another? Most are just unsubstantiated guesswork. Arguing that the maths adds up is no defence either when the parameters the maths are based on are guesswork. Imagine trying to calculate the age of the universe, how arrogant can we become one wonders? Who do we go to ask about such impossible speculations to see if our answers are correct, when more pressing Earthly science requires the attention of the very best that science has to offer.

So for now please accept that while I do not disbelieve, (open minded), like many people in this excellent forum require substantial proof about a PM discovery. The post mentioning the movement of the planet by the way as far as the planet is concerned is a closed system and does move perpetually! So any such machine could do worse than include gravity as a free force.
Science is continually evolving. Nothing is set in stone. Question everything and everyone. Always consider vested interests as a reason for miss-direction. But most of all explore and find answers that you are comfortable with

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Offline Pumblechook

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #40 on: 15/11/2008 10:29:22 »
I bought some psychotronic crystals from a man in a pub.  He told me if I kept them in my car not only would I get better mpg  they would protect me from the dealy waves from mobile phones masts.  I got them at a special price of only £200. 

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #41 on: 15/11/2008 14:25:41 »
I bought some psychotronic crystals from a man in a pub.  He told me if I kept them in my car not only would I get better mpg  they would protect me from the dealy waves from mobile phones masts.  I got them at a special price of only £200. 

 Proper sarcasm, at least I hope it is sarcasm. LOL
Any body pushing free energy, perpetual motion, ect. and asking for donations or backers without solid proof, is normally just another snake oil salesman. This is bad for there are to many claims out there and it makes it harder to get people to look the real thing when it is truly done.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #42 on: 15/11/2008 15:25:18 »
ABH
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Then you will have to say that gravity is an energy. But we are taught that it is a force. Thus I like the term force to energy converter.
Definition (not really negociable):
Work Done (mehanical energy transferred) = Force multiplied by distance moved by the force, in the direction that the force acts
'Gravity' is too loose a term to use meaningfully.
The Force which is caused by gravity (i.e. weight) is a force and is not energy.
The Gravitational Potential Energy of an object is the energy that was put in to getting the object where it is.  This Energy  (or Work), is given by mgh, where g is the gravitational field, m is the mass and h is the height to which it has been raised.
(You may or may not have been taught that but the above is what you should have been taught.)

You can 'get energy out' of a falling weight (like in an old clock) but, once the weight has fallen to the bottom, you have to wind it up again. Gravity is no more a source of energy than a spring or a rechargeable battery.

If you are 'using gravity' for your machine, then you must have objects falling down in it. If you say the objects move up again, then they will need to be lifted and this will require the same amount of energy as you got our PLUS something to make up for the frictional losses.
If you are using levers, gears, screws or anything else to reduce the force needed to lift them up again then you will have to move this reduced force FURTHER. The total (integral) of force times distance cannot be less.
All the diagrams you can see from past inventions involve 'hopeful' designs with many falling balls on one side and few raised balls on the other (or some such idea). Add up all the Work and you will never get more out than was put in. The friction, consequently, gives you a total loss.
Work it out yourself for a simple lever and the same applies for any other mechanism.

You mentioned your system going very fast. It should be able to work at snail's pace if it were truly Perpetual.
« Last Edit: 16/11/2008 10:20:01 by sophiecentaur »

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #43 on: 15/11/2008 15:27:28 »
AKF
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This is my nature; I do not believe anything until completely satisfied there is no other logical explanation.
That's an amazing statement, in the light of your own theory, posted elsewhere. Occam's razor should apply everywhere, surely.

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Offline Pumblechook

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #44 on: 15/11/2008 15:49:40 »
You could have free energy if you only ever went downhill.

I am going downhill rapidly but that is another matter.

 

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #45 on: 15/11/2008 16:13:26 »
@sophiecentaur

 Fantastic! you are hitting the nail on the head. Understanding what you have to overcome is the first step in solving the puzzle. The next step is understanding how movement reacts inside, lets say a wheel device. Centrifugal effect creates even more dimension to the puzzle. The reset, is what you have noted to be a very big problem and it is. Johan Bessler in the 18 century solved this problem and built 4 different working wheels. They were on display and no one could prove him wrong. They went to great stride, even as far as taxing him on it to get his secret. But they would not pay his price and from the pressure and false accusations against him, he decided keep it to himself. It is a very interesting story and full books on the subject. Most of what you see about him is footnotes and mostly without merit for they are from a nay say point of view.

You mentioned your system going very fast. It should be able to work at snail's pace if it were truly Perpetual.


 This statement I have to disagree with. For it can start out slow but it will speed up till frictions, centrifugal force effect, and other factors  determine its speed limits. Without these limits it would simply be gravity plus velocity = ? each and every turn.
« Last Edit: 15/11/2008 16:21:14 by AB Hammer »
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #46 on: 15/11/2008 17:03:29 »
Johan Bessler has the advantage of having lived a long time ago. So we cannot know exactly what he demonstrated. The ancient accounts of his demonstrations cannot be verified or disproved.
The Wikkers account of his work tells us he was in it for money. There's nothing wrong with that, per se, but breaking the wheel up rather than keeping it would suggest that he had something dodgey to hide. And there was a claim that it was, in fact, driven by hand.
Yuri Geller and others have performed similar astounding scams but they have all been uncovered. The gullible will always prefer the romantic interpretation of things rather than the rigorous one. But I should have hoped that things would have improved in 300 years.
I see that you are now suggesting that you can, in fact, get an energy flow OUT of the machine. That is really fantastic. The end to all our worries.

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #47 on: 15/11/2008 17:44:37 »
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but breaking the wheel up rather than keeping it would suggest that he had something dodgey to hide. And there was a claim that it was, in fact, driven by hand.

 Bessler got wind of the attempt to expose his secret without being paid by arresting him. You would have destroyed it to keep your secret as well. By the way he was cleared of all charges, and his secret safe. There were some people who have been allowed to see inside his wheel and they where of royal background, under their honor to keep the secret.

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I see that you are now suggesting that you can, in fact, get an energy flow OUT of the machine. That is really fantastic. The end to all our worries.

 All our worries? I don't think so. When successful it most likely have to be to big except for electrical generation and stationary mechanical work. The Amish would love it.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #48 on: 15/11/2008 19:00:13 »
With respect, he chose just the right people to show the workings to. Would you seriously expect the Royals of several hundred years ago to have been capable of spotting the 'flaw'?
Most of the human race, these days are unable to spot 'the flaw' either. That doesn't mean that there isn't one.

As for the necessary scale of a 'useful' version of your machine, what would be the problem with batteries for the small  power items?

Just go ahead and make the thing and we unbelievers will all be proved wrong.
I will even offer to come and witness it (as long as you pay my fare if I spot the flaw).
Now there's an offer. And it's not a wager.

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #49 on: 15/11/2008 21:18:38 »

Just go ahead and make the thing and we unbelievers will all be proved wrong.
I will even offer to come and witness it (as long as you pay my fare if I spot the flaw).
Now there's an offer. And it's not a wager.

Now that sound fair enough. I just have to get over this pneumonia and get my work up to date, so I can build it and then get patent pending status, and I will let you know.

PS wear and tear excluded from flaw for that is a given.
« Last Edit: 15/11/2008 21:20:10 by AB Hammer »
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan