Is perpetual motion impossible?

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Offline Bored chemist

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #100 on: 23/11/2008 19:14:07 »
It is not always the quest but, it is what you learn from the quest. Many many inventions have come from this quest that have helped change the world or had lead to others that have. I myself have 4 inventions that have come from this quest. One I am presenting for contract with the US military, but it has many other uses as well. (it is not a weapon)

 PS Bored chemist
That is a blanket answer. You didn't truly answer the question.

 
I gave a blanket answer because it's right. The details don't matter; perpetual motion doesn't work.
You said "if this ran forever would it be perpetual motion?"
Well, yes, it would - of course. So what? Since it won't run forever...
It's like saying "if it were driven by magic inexhaustible pink unicorns it would run forever". Could be- who cares- there aren't any pink unicorns.

BTW, the US military have done some monumentally stupid things in their time but even they are not gullible enough to buy a perpetual motion machine.
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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #101 on: 23/11/2008 20:47:29 »

BTW, the US military have done some monumentally stupid things in their time but even they are not gullible enough to buy a perpetual motion machine.

LMAO Talk about misdirection. I said it was another invention not a perpetual the idea came from my hobby.
BTW The perpetual machine I'm building is the machine design I posted, and you won't see it until all is finished. [8D]

sophiecentaur
That video was just for everyone's entertainment. I can also show you a steel rod taking the steel ball from the magnets in similar manner. I have also balanced 5 steel balls on the edge of the steel rod and lifted them 3 inches from the magnet as well. Again it is just a fun effect for entertainment. But the effect could be useful for someone working on a magnet wheel.
« Last Edit: 23/11/2008 20:49:31 by AB Hammer »
With out a dream, there is no vision.

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lyner

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« Reply #102 on: 23/11/2008 22:45:24 »
And I can play God Save The Queen on a banjo. It's quite irrelevant to PM.


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Offline nicephotog

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #103 on: 24/11/2008 07:25:33 »
Bored chemist: ...Since it won't work (due to friction etc),...

Satellites don't suffer friction in space but the orbit drops out because of the requirement for gravity.
Perhaps using magnets whirling each other for attraction to keep them in place outside a gravitational field could produce the alike to the extent that it finally becomes the decay by half life of the substances used before it is geometrically disrupted.

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lyner

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« Reply #104 on: 24/11/2008 09:09:22 »
Space is not free of friction (if you define the term wider than solid against solid). Certainly, satellites are close enough to be very much influenced by drag.

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Offline nicephotog

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #105 on: 24/11/2008 09:44:29 »
Satellites , effectively centrifical drag.
So let's move out into deep space and perhaps with these theoretical magnets orbiting each and other they will never overcome each other by oscillatorally re-supplying the energy they were given by either repulsion or attraction.
Perhaps the only loss could be made to be temporary but only while the other has that energy.

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lyner

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« Reply #106 on: 24/11/2008 10:25:39 »
Quote
effectively centrifical drag
??? what's that?

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Offline nicephotog

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #107 on: 24/11/2008 12:05:49 »
Satellites to orbit require centrifical force to stay up there and orbiting earth or they must sit further out in space in non orbit.
Gravity(the centrifical drag so to speak) holds them in orbit around the earth , to orbit that requires a small shove in the right direction to traverse their own orbit circumfrence relating being over the same area in sync with the earths rotation.

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Offline dentstudent

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #108 on: 24/11/2008 12:11:03 »
Centrifugal?

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Offline nicephotog

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #109 on: 24/11/2008 12:18:34 »
All right centrifugal drag as in ultra centrifuge.

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lyner

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« Reply #110 on: 24/11/2008 13:16:37 »
What does that involve - i.e. forces and mechanism?

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Offline nicephotog

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« Reply #111 on: 24/11/2008 13:52:35 »
Do you know how centrifugal force(e.g. measurement of torque in Newtons) operates and that gravity is an accelerative(not constant speed) force, and that the earths axis tilts? [if you want further answer to that].

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lyner

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« Reply #112 on: 24/11/2008 15:45:40 »
But none of those involve energy transfer. The issue of perpetual or non-perpetual motion depends upon energy loss - not forces.
And, whilst you are trying to be precise, the Speed of a satellite can be constant under gravitational acceleration. In a circular orbit, it is the Velocity which constantly changes- velocity being speed and direction.
Also, Torque is measured in Newton Metres, not Newtons (the unit of force).
If you want to explain things properly you need to be a bit more rigorous.
Good Science has to be very fussy.

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Offline Pumblechook

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« Reply #113 on: 24/11/2008 16:08:19 »
Somebody keep wittering on about making an electric motor which is 'thoudands' of times more efficient than current motors????

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Offline nicephotog

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #114 on: 24/11/2008 16:20:37 »
Just assuming a force such as gravity would cause some interference that could be eliminated by taking it beyond such a field.
The cited culprit against perpetual motion appears so far to be friction(mentioned by someone previously in the thread).
The only explanation for gravity appears to be mass. The more mass, the more gravity, so out in space away from all the usual fields perhaps the existent objects used for perpetual motion may themselves have a problem of themselves.
To counter against friction, magnetic devices have been used to prevent contact with a track in laboratories and the moved object balanced and directed by the repulsion field.
not: i was just saying gravity is not measured as a constant speed, its an acceleration e.g. the result of a division of a distance increment that again is divided by another denominator.

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Offline Bikerman

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« Reply #115 on: 24/11/2008 16:45:52 »
The objection to PM is summarised by the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics.
1st law essentially says that energy can neither be created or destroyed
2nd law essentially says that heat flows from hotter to cooler (often summarised as 'entropy increases')

Any system of PM must achieve 'over-unity' - ie you get more out than you put in. That is impossible according to the above laws.

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lyner

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« Reply #116 on: 24/11/2008 17:12:07 »
Quote
Just assuming a force such as gravity would cause some interference that could be eliminated by taking it beyond such a field.
Beyond the range of the inverse square law, do you mean. A bit beyond the Moon's orbit, or beyond Pluto or outside our Galaxy?
1/x2 never gets to zero, however big you choose to make x.
In any case, Gravity doesn't 'use up' energy. It is a conservative field and I don't mean David Cameron's garden. So getting away from it is no help at all.

Bikerman: I am sorry. You have clearly missed the rules of this particular thread. You have made a huge mistake by introducing fact, reason and Science in a Post. You can guarantee it will be ignored in this fantasy land.

Let's assume that Perpetual Motion is possible ---- then Perpetual Motion is possible. QED

Yes, but just say it was.          AAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH

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Offline Bikerman

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« Reply #117 on: 24/11/2008 17:18:52 »
Let's assume that Perpetual Motion is possible ---- then Perpetual Motion is possible. QED

Yes, but just say it was.          AAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH

LOL...nobody told me it was the tautology special...I though it was happy hour  [:D]

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lyner

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« Reply #118 on: 24/11/2008 17:27:33 »
Hic  :)

Laws?  SCHMAWS!

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #119 on: 24/11/2008 18:56:22 »
The objection to PM is summarised by the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics.
1st law essentially says that energy can neither be created or destroyed
2nd law essentially says that heat flows from hotter to cooler (often summarised as 'entropy increases')

Any system of PM must achieve 'over-unity' - ie you get more out than you put in. That is impossible according to the above laws.

“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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« Reply #120 on: 24/11/2008 20:41:51 »
If we based our whole lives on that statement there would be no point in getting up in the morning.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #121 on: 24/11/2008 22:08:41 »
If we based our whole lives on that statement there would be no point in getting up in the morning.

 LOL No, it is still worth getting up in the morning. The so called laws have served us well and should never be taken lightly. But we shouldn't hold on to them like a religion either for they are only as good as we have advanced so far. Like I have new ideas of magnetism, but I have allot to study before I try to say anything. But experiments are a must to check out hypothesis of each idea. That is what science is, to learn and prove what is learned. So when I show a perpetual wheel, it will be true. But if I am mistaken and can not prove it, then I will have still enjoyed my hobby.   
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline Bikerman

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« Reply #122 on: 24/11/2008 22:42:54 »
Err, the 'so-called' laws have a sound theoretical basis and have been tested empirically more times than you can shake a stick at. On the basis that no physical law can ever be proved (induction..cf Karl Popper) then, of course, you can posit that one day we may discover they are wrong. There is absolutely no reason, however, to believe that the laws of thermodynamics ARE wrong, and a huge amount of data and theory supports the idea that they are correct.

Planck was talking at a time of fundamental discovery. The new quantum theory challenged traditional 'classical' physics and, of course, he was keen to point out that the classical laws were not set in stone - it was already apparent that the Thompson and Rutherford models of the atom were erroneous (cf the ultraviolet catastrophe)
That does not really apply with the laws of thermodynamics. There is nothing in modern physics that seems to indicate that thermodynamic laws are on shaky ground.
« Last Edit: 24/11/2008 23:23:37 by Bikerman »

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #123 on: 25/11/2008 02:35:35 »
Greetings Bikerman

 I see you are well versed. Very good for you might be able to see what I have truly been saying.
Each action in a wheel system works by angle gravity and direction. Also each action overbalances a wheel. Now this is the basic theory for a perpetual wheel. Now in thousands of attempt that have been done they would move and then balance before another action can take place. This is an obvious and typical problem and used to show the impossibility of perpetual motion.
 Now lets take a system where each typical movement and expected but added together. movement reaction to another typical movement reaction, which react to another typical movement reaction creating a continuous overbalance to keep spinning and keep shifting until it breaks or something from the outside stops it.
 Each and every action by itself lays within the known laws of physics. But together since they react to each other setting them in motion perpetuating the reactions in a closed system. Now how can that break the laws of physics? Logic say it shouldn't but the physicist says it does. Under these circumstances if proven a new understanding will have to occur, no matter how hard the physicist says no.
 
 So under what I wrote here. How can you say it breaks the laws of physics?
« Last Edit: 25/11/2008 02:38:13 by AB Hammer »
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline dentstudent

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #124 on: 25/11/2008 07:36:59 »
The objection to PM is summarised by the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics.
1st law essentially says that energy can neither be created or destroyed
2nd law essentially says that heat flows from hotter to cooler (often summarised as 'entropy increases')

Any system of PM must achieve 'over-unity' - ie you get more out than you put in. That is impossible according to the above laws.

“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”

Quote By Max Planck father of Quantum physics 1858 - 1947

Bikerman - This is the other default zone - qoute someone about something. This therefore makes your case valid. Something of a logical fallacy, I believe.

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lyner

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« Reply #125 on: 25/11/2008 07:53:47 »
ABH
Any system for PM will or will not work because of the actual quantities involved. You have not quoted a single value in your arguments.
If you can't show by calculation how, for each of your "actions" and  "reactions", you will get something extra out, then the system won't work. Flowery phrases don't make an internal combustion engine or a generator work and they won't make your machine work either.
You have proved to yourself already that machines don't go on for ever. Why not believe your own evidence if you won't believe what Science is telling you?

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Offline Bikerman

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« Reply #126 on: 25/11/2008 13:22:29 »
Greetings Bikerman

 I see you are well versed. Very good for you might be able to see what I have truly been saying.
Each action in a wheel system works by angle gravity and direction. Also each action overbalances a wheel. Now this is the basic theory for a perpetual wheel. Now in thousands of attempt that have been done they would move and then balance before another action can take place. This is an obvious and typical problem and used to show the impossibility of perpetual motion.
 Now lets take a system where each typical movement and expected but added together. movement reaction to another typical movement reaction, which react to another typical movement reaction creating a continuous overbalance to keep spinning and keep shifting until it breaks or something from the outside stops it.
 Each and every action by itself lays within the known laws of physics. But together since they react to each other setting them in motion perpetuating the reactions in a closed system. Now how can that break the laws of physics? Logic say it shouldn't but the physicist says it does. Under these circumstances if proven a new understanding will have to occur, no matter how hard the physicist says no.
 So under what I wrote here. How can you say it breaks the laws of physics?
I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you are proposing. Everytime movement is transferred from one element to another you have a loss of energy - either through heat or inertia.
Perhaps you can sketch your proposal so I can properly critique it...?

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lyner

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« Reply #127 on: 25/11/2008 17:39:28 »
Can you draw a cukoo on a cloud, perhaps.


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Offline Flyberius

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« Reply #128 on: 25/11/2008 18:28:29 »
Am I right in thinking Andrew said we shouldn't over specify what PM is?  If thats the case then I vote the universe a perpetual motion machine.  Why you ask?  Because it wont stop moving.  Ever.

I win.  Whats more I can see my discovery benefiting millions of humans accross the globe with its highly practical deeper message.  Go quackery!!!

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #129 on: 25/11/2008 21:13:52 »
Can you draw a cukoo on a cloud, perhaps.



 Sarcasm A?

 Well you say perpetual motion doesn't exist? Well then why is it in the dictionary?

Hit you with some of your own style logic. LOL
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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lyner

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« Reply #130 on: 25/11/2008 22:22:51 »
You will also find fairies, witches, magic and God in the dictionary. Not everyone would say that they believe in any of them.

But let's have some numbers from you. If there is enough energy to overcome the losses - plus some to spare, you must know where it is coming from and have an estimate of its value.
Presumably you do understand the concept of energy and work.

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #131 on: 26/11/2008 00:38:03 »
LMAO

 Well here is a believed photo of fairies, I am married to a witch, I have a graduates degree in theology for the belief in God, and miracles are also call magic.


PS I took the photo.
« Last Edit: 26/11/2008 00:50:04 by AB Hammer »
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #132 on: 26/11/2008 00:48:44 »
But let's have some numbers from you. If there is enough energy to overcome the losses - plus some to spare, you must know where it is coming from and have an estimate of its value.
Presumably you do understand the concept of energy and work.

 Well here are some numbers 20%. Out of a 100 lbs of weights in a wheel I keep 20% greater advantage. This is the same as 20 lbs value to the descending side 100% of the time constant spin. This is the numbers that count the rest is trivial.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline Bikerman

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« Reply #133 on: 26/11/2008 00:51:07 »
But let's have some numbers from you. If there is enough energy to overcome the losses - plus some to spare, you must know where it is coming from and have an estimate of its value.
Presumably you do understand the concept of energy and work.

 Well here are some numbers 20%. Out of a 100 lbs of weights in a wheel I keep 20% greater advantage. This is the same as 20 lbs value to the descending side 100% of the time constant spin. This is the numbers that count the rest is trivial.
That's not numbers - that is words. 20% greater than what? Sketch your device and, as I said, I will point out your error (and yes, there will be an error - there ALWAYS is in these cases).

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #134 on: 26/11/2008 01:03:12 »
Quote
That's not numbers - that is words. 20% greater than what? Sketch your device and, as I said, I will point out your error (and yes, there will be an error - there ALWAYS is in these cases).

Greetings Bikerman

 I have 20% more weight constant on the descending side of the wheel under constant shift of the total weight of the weights in the wheel. Since this is my secret and until all protections are in place. I can not show you what it is. Nor do I ask for money either so I am not a scamer. I work under an honest approach but personal design. Well all and all this is what Bessler had to deal with as well. But his was ready and the people just wanted it for free. Bessler could not afford to do that so he died with his secret and I may be the person who found it.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline Bikerman

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« Reply #135 on: 26/11/2008 01:37:59 »
Greetings Bikerman

 I have 20% more weight constant on the descending side of the wheel under constant shift of the total weight of the weights in the wheel. Since this is my secret and until all protections are in place. I can not show you what it is. Nor do I ask for money either so I am not a scamer. I work under an honest approach but personal design. Well all and all this is what Bessler had to deal with as well. But his was ready and the people just wanted it for free. Bessler could not afford to do that so he died with his secret and I may be the person who found it.
LOL....if I had a pound for everytime I had heard that then I would have enough for a new bike.
Anyway - if your invention is unprotected then why are you posting on a public forum about it? Why don't you simply register the patent and show us science bods how wrong we are? Could it be, perhaps, that it is total baloney and that you simply want to sound like you have something? After all there is a long and ignoble tradition of such postings in many forums...

I'll make you a wager. I'll bet you than in (say) 12 months you have no working prototype, no patent protection and, essentially, nothing to offer. I've offered the same wager to 4 people previously who made similar claims about PM devices - funnily enough none of them took me up. Should we say a thousand pounds? I can easily provide credit details to be arbitrated by a third person...
« Last Edit: 26/11/2008 01:42:18 by Bikerman »

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #136 on: 26/11/2008 01:53:18 »
Greetings Bikerman

 I am preparing myself, For once shown, I will have to talk allot to very intelligent people and despite the showings there will be people trying to prove it a hoax and those people will attack vigorously due to our teaching we have lived by. It will be kind of like breaking someones religion, and when peoples belief's are broke. Some people become violent. Most hoaxers show some form of machine with a hidden driving units. I will not show my machine/machines until I can show them inside and out safely. 
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline Bikerman

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« Reply #137 on: 26/11/2008 01:56:56 »
Words, friend, just words.
Why not take my wager if you are so confident? After all, £1000 is not to be sneezed at. Simply provide details of a deposit, I will do the same, and we'll nominate a third party to act as arbiter.

You can register a patent for £130 search fee here in the UK. That would leave you £870 profit.

PS Bessler WAS a scammer. The fact that we don't know how he did it is largely down to the fact that it was so long ago and much of the detail has been lost in history. Like all such 'mysteries' a whole body of internet folklore has been created around his wheel but the simple facts are that his 'invention' contradicts the known laws of science and nobody has ever been able to replicate his results.
« Last Edit: 26/11/2008 02:06:26 by Bikerman »

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #138 on: 26/11/2008 02:13:16 »
Greetings Bikerman

 A wager would be breaking the rules. But the real truth is. If I am correct a £1000 would as valuable like the penny you just didn't pick up for it wasn't worth the bother. Not to mention it would open up an opportunity for someone to take such a breakthrough for so little. [::)]
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline Bikerman

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« Reply #139 on: 26/11/2008 02:19:17 »
Greetings Bikerman

 A wager would be breaking the rules. But the real truth is. If I am correct a £1000 would as valuable like the penny you just didn't pick up for it wasn't worth the bother. Not to mention it would open up an opportunity for someone to take such a breakthrough for so little. [::)]
Oh yeah..right...So registering a patent (which provides 20 year protection) would be giving your idea away would it? Sure it would...

I'm afraid you are now consigned to my ever-growing list of internet loonies..

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #140 on: 26/11/2008 03:09:10 »
LMAO Bikerman

 I can afford to laugh for you have it and you don't. I already have what I need. Bessler went through the same type of statements from those who attacked him as well. So I feel I am in good company. [;D] [;D] [;D
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline AB Hammer

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« Reply #141 on: 26/11/2008 03:53:50 »
 I figure I would clarify what I said.(you have it and you don't.)

I have given all the information you need, but you don't have the foresight to use it. you allow your teachings to cloud allot of your possibilities. So all and all you will just have to wait. Another forum I spent some time on did experiments and they where skeptics as well, but they put it to a true testing and even tried to do simulations and even a build. All from the design I posted here as well. [::)]
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #142 on: 26/11/2008 07:09:26 »
Until you have a working machine nobody will believe you.
Stop posting; start building
Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline Pumblechook

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« Reply #143 on: 26/11/2008 11:05:49 »
Any news from the MIT prof who reckoned he could transmit power several metres through the air by radio with very little loss?   He hadn't demonstrated it but had proved (?) mathematically it could be done. 

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Offline Don_1

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« Reply #144 on: 26/11/2008 11:22:07 »
The problem everyone will encounter with most systems planned and dreamt up is in the fact that they all have common problems; wear on moving parts which contact other parts, friction and gravity.

Why does everyone assume that perpetual motion must be a stable and uniform motion?
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline Don_1

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« Reply #145 on: 26/11/2008 11:53:12 »
In this diagram, two permanent magnets are suspended from a gantry with fishing line. The N & S poles are aligned with each other. Gravity will pull them down, but the like poles will push them apart. Would they eventually stop moving? Does the external force of gravity exclude this from the accepted term of perpetual motion? Is this too simplistic to work?

What say you?[diagram=377_0]
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline dentstudent

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #146 on: 26/11/2008 11:55:46 »
Isn't there an awful lot of energy that has gone into the polarisation of the magnets in the first place?

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Offline Don_1

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #147 on: 26/11/2008 12:20:42 »
Good point!
If brains were made of dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #148 on: 26/11/2008 13:09:52 »
Until you have a working machine nobody will believe you.
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@ Bored chemist

 The reason I went looking for another forum is because I have been stuck in the house with phenomena and now that I am getting over it I have to do my living work first before I can get back to my hobby work. I have built around 30 wheels and untold amount of test over the last year and a half, as well as designed around 400 wheels, and have helped others with designs counting around 40. Hands on tell you more than any math can tell you when it comes to balances and effects. I have had 3 near runners up to date.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

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Offline AB Hammer

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Is perpetual motion impossible?
« Reply #149 on: 26/11/2008 13:32:15 »
The problem everyone will encounter with most systems planned and dreamt up is in the fact that they all have common problems; wear on moving parts which contact other parts, friction and gravity.

Why does everyone assume that perpetual motion must be a stable and uniform motion?

 Fortunately wear and tear is accepted in the real world, when it come to machines. But Gravity is your friend once you learn how to use it. Also the reason people look for a uniform motion is for smoothness and it will work more expectantly with modern day machine designs the way they are expected to work.
With out a dream, there is no vision.

Alan