[rosy]

I fail to see how maths can help to convince a person to tilt their bed by five degrees to the horizontal and watch their varicose veins deflate and eventually return to normal looking veins. Perhaps I may be missing a point here?

Yup. Missing a point would be about right.
The calculations, based on the movements of more and less dense fluids up and down that you believe to be occuring, their changes in kinetic and gravitational potential energy, and how this compares to the required transport of sugars, oxygen, etc to all parts of the body (including the head...), would if you could show that they were consistent with reality, mean that you looked a bit less like a total crank. As I've said before on several occasions, it appears that something in what you're doing might be working in the cases you cite (although of course I don't know enough about any of the conditions you're attempting to treat to comment on the probabilities of random spontaneous remission). If you are indeed correct, you are doing people with these unpleasant and in some cases life threatening conditions a considerable disservice by persisting in espousing what all the trained scientists on this board (who are probably a reasonable test sample for scientists and medics in general) consider to be an utterly implausible theory in direct opposition to know medical data to date. The disbelief (and indeed derision) with which your theories are met may not bother you but it stands between a wider public and the application of your treatment.
An apposite quote might be one I heard recently in another context:
“It is not enough to wear the mantle of Galileo: that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment. You must also be right.” — Robert L. Park

[Bored chemist]

AKF, you seem to have missed my point, if I had said "eating oranges" instead of " watching TV" the essence of my post would have been the same.
Just because one state of affairs doesn't stop varicose veins does not mean that a different state will.
Incidentally, if gravity drove the circulation you would die if you went swimming. In water the bouyancy essentially removes gravit's effect.
Your circulation would vary wildly as you stood up or lay down. In the real wortld postural hypotension is viewed as an unusual condition- worthy of treatment.
God help you if you were upside down (and I think that, even if we don't do it now, we all did this as children.


The single clearest evidence that the heart provides circulation rather than some strange effect of gravity is

 when your heart stops you die.
End of story.

[RD]

As I mentioned previously, photographs are not a reliable method of evaluating any changes in texture...

 [ Invalid Attachment ]


Here I have digitally adjusted the contrast, but contrast can be varied by the way the subject is lit,
e.g. type and position of light source, time of day and weather if naturally lit, type of film /camera,
a nearby white wall acting as a reflector (will reduce contrast).

[BenV]

Andrew, I feel i need to point out again that I'm not saying that you haven't seen results, and I'm not saying anything against the idea of testing IBT.  I'm questioning your interpretation.

You've now confused me about chicks - Do chicks breathe inside an egg?  If not, your arguements don't add up.

The heart rate decreases by 10-12 beats per minute on IBT. Yet circulation is improved.

What do you mean by improved?  There's nothing out of place unless you mean the rate of blood flow is increased.

[JnA]

JnA good point about the valves and structures of the veins. The photographs Alun has provided us with show that damaged valves could not have been the cause of the pressure that produced varicose veins. He should have had surgery, but fortunately decided to give IBT a chance.

What surprises me most is the simple fact that VV are caused by a breakdown of the very structures inside our veins that fight gravity.

have to say that the pics don't convince me.
And if VV aren't caused by the valves not working/meeting properly then maybe I need to go back to basic medicine.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

2 pictures, showing Male 33 yrs Varicose vein on calf muscle prior to tilting bed to a five degree to the horizontal head up tilt.



3 pictures showing same male 34 yrs normal size vein on calf muscle with some evidence of stretch bruising from previous varicose vein after 6 months of Inclined Bed Therapy.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

3 pictures taken in morning during Inclined Bed Therapy and before sitting or standing, showing male 34 yrs inner thigh and Calf varicose veins with reduced pressure inside the vein alowing them to become normal in appearance. The reduced internal pressure afforded by IBT will allow the vein to become normal and resistant to internal pressure during the day. A support / compression leg stocking was used routinely under the advice of his consultant as a temporary measure prior to varicose vein surgery. Fortunately this male is unlikely to need surgery in the future and enjoys wearing shorts instead of a support stocking on the beach with his family.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

BC swimming does not remove the effects of gravity. Buoyancy is not avoiding gravity any more than freefalling from an aircraft is. Solutes will move freely inside the body and they are in effect swimming in fluids. If this were the case then my experiments would not work either as the dissolved solutes within are in fact swimming in water, yet gravity does not appear to be comprimised.

Postural Orthostatic hypotension is more commonly felt when standing from laying horizontal. When horizontal, the renal function is not performing as well as it should be and salts are stored in the body rather than in the bladder (incidentally this has been proven using a simple hydrometer) IBT on the other hand allows kidney function to remove more salts and produce denser urine in the bladder. On standing after IBT there is little to no evidence of orthostatic hypotension. Research into spinal cord injury and IBT revealed this to be the case in people with complete and incomplete spinal cord injuries. Even in cases where a person would normally black out on trying to use a standing frame, the effects of hypotension were not felt following IBT. However, prolong sitting in a wheelchair did produce hypotension on standing in a frame.

AKF, you seem to have missed my point, if I had said "eating oranges" instead of " watching TV" the essence of my post would have been the same.
Just because one state of affairs doesn't stop varicose veins does not mean that a different state will.
Incidentally, if gravity drove the circulation you would die if you went swimming. In water the bouyancy essentially removes gravit's effect.
Your circulation would vary wildly as you stood up or lay down. In the real wortld postural hypotension is viewed as an unusual condition- worthy of treatment.
God help you if you were upside down (and I think that, even if we don't do it now, we all did this as children.


The single clearest evidence that the heart provides circulation rather than some strange effect of gravity is

 when your heart stops you die.
End of story.

[RD]

Photos do not reliably show texture, but they do show discolouration well ...
 [ Invalid Attachment ]

Note the romboid and kite-shaped purple/red macular lesions (and petechiae) : hallmarks of small-vessel vasculitis.

Your IBT guinea-pig appears to have vasculitis: this vasculopathic condition could explain varicose veins in a 33yr old.

If his varicose veins have actually improved a spontaneous remission in the vasculitis could cause that improvement.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

So RD. We ask Alun if he will tilt his bed to see if his veins go flat, at the same time Old Dragon and Old Biker provide us with their own positive experiences using IBT to reduce their varicose veins and oedema, and let's not forget Karen's own observations with blood pressure changes and oedema reduction, and when they provide us with photographs showing the varicose veins and oedema has responded as predicted it would do. Let us not forget that Alun the 34 year male has had varicose veins since he was first diagnosed at 19 yrs. And we get a spontaneous remission, by which I take it you mean if he had continued to sleep flat it would have happened any how? Sorry RD, I nearly broke a rib laughing at that one.

Don't you just love that old get out clause called spontaneous remission. It has been used diligently since 1994 to avoid accepting what is blatantly an obvious improvement in a varicose vein. And yes, it is indeed a spontaneous remission caused by Inclined Bed Therapy!

Photos do not reliably show texture, but they do show discolouration well ...


Note the rhomboid and kite-shaped purple/red macular lesions (and petechiae) : hallmarks of small-vessel vasculitis.

Your IBT guinea-pig appears to have vasculitis: this vasculopathic condition could explain varicose veins in a 33yr old.

If his varicose veins have actually improved a spontaneous remission in the vasculitis could cause that improvement.

[RD]

Whether or not IBT improves varicose veins, Alun has varicose veins and apparently he also has vasculitis, (which could explain why he has has varicose veins from a young age). If Alun is not aware that apparently has vasculitis then perhaps you should mention this possibility to him as it is potentially a serious, but treatable, condition.

Just spotted another red romboid lesion on Alun's calf ...

 [ Invalid Attachment ]

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Your colour enhancement of the picture of Alun's calf should reflect the same un-enhanced picture you have placed by the side of it. Hardly a comparison. I suspect if you did the same to a photograph of your own leg, we may also see odd marks. It is no surprise that there may be an underlying cause. But I doubt that cause is vasculitis. I have mentioned your concerns to Alun as you suggested.

By the way, a quick google in images for vasculitis reveals vasculitis is a red inflamation of the veins, my father had this problem along with leg ulcers, varicose veins and oedema. Dad was a window cleaner for too many years and the constant pressure from the ladder on his feet did a lot of damage.

Whether or not IBT improves varicose veins, Alun has varicose veins and apparently he also has vasculitis, (which could explain why he has has varicose veins from a young age). If Alun is not aware that apparently has vasculitis then perhaps you should mention this possibility to him as it is potentially a serious, but treatable, condition.

Just spotted another red rhomboid lesion on Alun's calf ...

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

2 photographs of Alun's leg taken today using same camera and lighting as previous photographs, showing no obvious signs of vasculitis or indeed varicose veins. This is following 6 months of Inclined Bed Therapy.

[BenV]

There's no need to post all of this in two threads, please delete the above post, as it's available here:  http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=9843.150;topicseen

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

The link above is following Alun's progress. These photographs were taken today and offer evidence for the study.

The same photographs show readers of this thread that Alun's leg does not resemble the enhanced colours of RD's edited version of Alun's picture. It also shows that Alun does not appear to have a problem with vasculitis. He did however recently have ringworm on the same calf area. Perhaps this is what the enhanced pictures are showing?

Sorry if you feel this to be an inappropriate post, if this explanation does not suffice let me know and I will ask Alun to provide us with some more photographs that show clearly his huge improvements in varicose veins.

[BenV]

The problem is not the photographs, but that there are now two threads devoted to the same thing.  This isn't your fault, (the original topic was 'why not study...', but it's become a different conversation) but there's no point running the two threads.  I think we should either delete the pictures from this thread, or merge the two.  What would you prefer?

[RD]

It also shows that Alun does not appear to have a problem with vasculitis.

Says the chap who had to google vasculitis a few hours ago.

Alun still has romboid & kite markings (& petechiae) ...

 [ Invalid Attachment ]

He did however recently have ringworm on the same calf area.

  Vasculitis can also create ring, ellipse, disc, petal and helical lesions as well as romboid and kite.
    Ringworm would not produce romboid or kite markings: they are the hallmarks of small-vessel vasculopathy.

     Vasculitis can be relapsing-remitting.  The number of petechiae (red spots) indicate disease activity.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

I did google vasculitis images. Anything wrong with using google? I did so because the picture you were showing of Alun's leg does not look like the typical red marks that my father exhibited along with eczema, leg ulcer etc.

The marks you have now circled are typical of varicose veins shrinking using IBT. My wife and may others have observed this bruising / darkening of the skin. Now I can see clearly what you are referring to and it is obvious Alun does not exhibit any markers for vasculitis. He did have ringworm in the same area but this is the result of stretched skin returning to it’s pre stretched state.

We can argue about your informed inspection and analysis of the picture so why not comment on why you are ignoring the obvious reduction in the varicose vein and my reason for starting the thread to show just how skilful at ignoring sound reproducible results the medical profession is.

Ben,

I can't help thinking about the real reasons for hiding this thread, perhaps I may be paranoid, who knows. If we openly debate this subject are we not more likely to progress to someone repeating the results even if a “proper controlled study” is skilfully avoided for another 15 years or more.

We have a great opportunity to help people who suffer with often horrific skin conditions including vasculitis, eczema, psoriasis, oedema, ulcer, gangrene, and loss of limb and life.

Surely it is worth a little embarrassment and a touch of repetition if it eventually leads on to saving life and limb?

[RD]

The marks you have now circled are typical of varicose veins shrinking using IBT.

If the markings you have observed are romboid or kite-shaped then the person has small-vessel vasculopathy, (vasculitis or pseudovasculitis).  Such markings are pathognomic for small-vessel vasculopathy.

Whether or not you have cured people of varicose veins, (I do not believe so), Alun and any other of your volunteers who have romboid or kite-shaped red/purple markings have vasculitis. If they have many little red spots (petechiae) the vasculitis is active, the greater the number of spots the more active the disease flare.

If you are now claiming IBT has cured vasculitis, an illness you are unfamiliar with (hence your recent google search), then why does Alun presently have a dozen red spots (petechiae) on half of his calf ?

Here is a link to the source of the vasculitis leg image I have used above
http://www.dermnetnz.org/vascular/img/vasculitis/index.html

[BenV]

I can't help thinking about the real reasons for hiding this thread, perhaps I may be paranoid, who knows. If we openly debate this subject are we not more likely to progress to someone repeating the results even if a “proper controlled study” is skilfully avoided for another 15 years or more.

Yes, you are paranoid.  Nothing I would have done would have 'hidden' this thread, it would have still been here, but not duplicated the content of the other thread in which you are collecting your photographic evidence.  We try not to allow any other discussion to be duplicated on two treads, so why would this one be special?

Why put proper controlled study in quotation marks?  And who do you think is "skillfully" avoiding testing this?  There's no-one out to get you, or intentionally to block you with malice.


Edit - I've just thought of another angle you could follow.  It looks like people have been using inclined beds for the last 20 years or so to help with acid reflux.  It could be interesting and might give you some indicative data if these people have a different incidence of certain health problems than the population as a whole.  There's the chief issue that they all have an illness in common (acid reflux) but it looks as if there may be 20 years worth of data if you can find the people.