[link7881]

I had varicose veins on both of my legs. But they seem too severe, but my doctor told me that they have to remove the swelling before it gets worst. I undergone sclerotherapy, this procedure often is used to treat smaller varicose veins and spider veins. It can be done in your doctor's office, while you stand. You may need several treatments to completely close off a vein. I am still under treatment. The injecting procedure is tolerable cuz I'm not scared of injections but once the liquid or the medicinal liquid is in the veins, my gosh!!! That is the pain I can't tolerate! [:0] Now both of my legs are ok but there are still spider veins that I needed my doctor to remove from being visible. I also tried laser therapy and this works better than a sclero.

_{mod edit - spammy link removed}

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Clinical trials: deliberations on their essence and value
Franz A. Schelling MD 1
  1 General Practitioner,
Austria

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118806098/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

Rationale, aim & objectives In the context of the evidence-based medicine (EBM) movement, the clinical trial has come to be hailed as the ultimate source of medical knowledge, and especially of clinical pharmacology. By subjecting the premises of this procedure to a thorough analysis, the author hopes to achieve a sound rating of its epistemological significance in the context of medical research.

Method Current claims on the basic importance of the evidence provided by standardized clinical trials are confronted with conflicting observations concerning their current application in medical practice. The stereotyped trials of present research in multiple sclerosis serve as an example to illustrate this point.

Results Traditional assumptions concerning the validity of standardized clinical trials are based on an illusion of absolute objectivity and reliability. Apart from being subject to tough publish (conveniently)-or-perish and commercial influences, the results of clinical trials, especially drug trials, are of limited informative value in diverse respects, such as (i) clinical trials do not identify every possible drug reaction for every instance of a disease; (ii) their results never allow the prediction of the efficacy of a specific drug in any given individual; (iii) clinical trials have no inherent potential to provide concrete insights into the nature and cause(s) of a definite morbid condition; and (iv) extensions of clinical drug trials to ever-larger study groups indicate serious problems in basic theoretical respects.

Conclusion A clinical trial cannot indicate a certain prevention or cure for any particular instance of a disease, and the correctness of its individual predictions is always only contingent. This can be explained by the fact that the correspondence between the nature of each of all pathological conditions presented by the different members of a clinical trial population and by the individual patients being treated according to the results of the trial is never complete.

Accepted for publication: 11 September 2003

Did I  ask if there was a double blind trial?
Single blind would do for a start.

[lyner]

I'm not sure what that post is getting at; you make no personal comment to explain why you posted it.
As far as I can see, it just points out the shortcomings of clinical trials.  But what is the alternative? Do without them? That would be madness.

Clinical trials have a chance of revealing possible harmful effects of a treatment and, where there is a strong causal relationship, they will show that a treatment works. I would go for the clinical trial rather than someone's personal experience any time. Both methods have flaws but the undisciplined method has nothing to recommend it at all. There is too much self interest and possible bias involved.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Yes you are sure what that post is getting at!

Time and time again I hear no controlled study has been conducted, and why would there be when a proposed study showing expensive Varicose Vein surgery are no longer required would impact the secure jobs of vascular surgeons who would have to be involved in such a “controlled study”. Control is the word that counts here, as in this case it is the prevention of any such trial relating to Inclined Bed Therapy that has been successfully controlled by preventing it from taking place.

Those photographs Alun and others have provided show a great deal more about how far off the mark about circulation surgeons and doctors really are.
Why on earth would any controlled study improve the outcome of Alun’s Legs?

Hiding behind the “there has not been a controlled study excuse” has been well and truly exposed for what it is, nothing more than a pathetic attempt to walk past compelling evidence that the people who wrote those precious physiology books have been shown to be completely wrong about varicose veins and oedema!

Franz Schelling did not write this critique about the controlled study method because he felt it was unbiased and accurate. He wrote it because he has seen for himself as we all have how results that promote drugs can be later revealed to be somewhat less than reliable, particularly when so many peoples lives are put at risk by greed and corruption within the massive drug companies who “control” the who does what and where of clinical trials!

The alternative to clinical trials in the case of testing drugs before they reach the market is laughable, because there is no alternative to a clinical trial, it is so tightly sewn up than this argument is a hypothetical one as you well know. And one that is used to great effect in controlling alternative medicines from plants metals and minerals that have been handed down for thousands of years without a controlled study in sight!

Which brings us back to IBT. The first inclined beds I have become aware of were used by the Ancient Egyptians over 4 thousand years ago.

Controlled studies have been conducted on flat beds over prolonged periods and have shown horizontal bedrest to induce degeneration of the bones and joints, muscles, heart muscle, cause thrombosis, pressure sores, paralysis, stroke, skin conditions, high blood pressure,  kidney stones, bladder infections, and so on. NASA et al have spent $billions on such studies designed to reflect the degeneration that astronauts face when living in microgravity during space flight, an argument I have raised many times. But all of these experiments provide the real life controls for IBT. NASA is currently conducted expensive trials and is paying thousands of dollars for people to sleep head down in bed for months. They even provide them with World Of Warcraft computer game and consoles to take their minds off the monotony and discomfort. Why do you think they are conducting this “controlled” study? Could it be that they are seeing how quickly these youngsters deteriorate? Have they informed them what is about to happen to them or in the “controlled study” would that bias the results and awaken these people to the fact that NASA is trying to cause them serious harm?
 

I'm not sure what that post is getting at; you make no personal comment to explain why you posted it.
As far as I can see, it just points out the shortcomings of clinical trials.  But what is the alternative? Do without them? That would be madness.

Clinical trials have a chance of revealing possible harmful effects of a treatment and, where there is a strong causal relationship, they will show that a treatment works. I would go for the clinical trial rather than someone's personal experience any time. Both methods have flaws but the undisciplined method has nothing to recommend it at all. There is too much self interest and possible bias involved.

[lyner]

With the best will in the World, you do not have enough statistical data to show a correlation between your cause and effect. Even less, do you have reason to demonstrate a causal relationship. That is what extensive trials are for.

I understand your frustration when you think you have something that works but 'they' won't listen. It is a Catch 22 situation because they won't listen to you (or a thousand loonies with whacky remedies - note, I didn't say "other loonies -lol) unless the information is presented to them in a way they recognise. This is because of the safety device called conservatism. What else can they do but expect people to establish some cred before they listen to them?

[RD]

Alun after 9 months IBT ...

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[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Still playing with paintshop pro I see.

Alun had a large varicose vein on his calf muscle, now he don't! So Now you see it now you don't.

Why not turn his whole leg green and say he has Hulkivitis?

[RD]

Admittedly not as many petechiae as in this photo posted in January, but vasculitis can be relapsing remitting.

 [ Invalid Attachment ]


If you and/or Alun are interested in an accurate diagnosis you could post the images in this thread on a teledermatology website,
 (if you do I suggest you mask out the word “vasculitis” from the photo for an unbiased opinion).

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

Please explain why the photograph showing this condition on the right is not "digitally enhanced" and why you have enhanced the photograph of Alun's leg for comparison?

So you expect me to send in your doctored ohotograph version of Alun's leg for an analysis? Do me a favour

Where the varicose veins have been pulled back to level with the skin surface, there is going to be discolouration for many months to follow, eventually this will fade and the skin tone will become more natural. Already commented upon by Alun's own family, who see the chnages taking place with the naked eye.

What you should be asking is why Alun no longer requires surgery on a varicose vein that has been there for many years and now clearly has vanished. But this would take courage to go against so many people earning huge amounts of money, conducting clearly redundent surgery. Instead of trying to cloud this important issue try to stay focused on what this thread is showing.

Admittedly not as many petechiae as in this photo posted in January, but vasculitis can be relapsing remitting.

If you and/or Alun are interested in an accurate diagnosis you could post the images in this thread on a teledermatology website,
 (if you do I suggest you mask out the word “vasculitis” from the photo for an unbiased opinion).

[RD]

...trying to cloud this important issue try to stay focused on what this thread is showing.  

No obfuscation of my part.
If Alun's varices have improved this could be explained by remission of the vasculopathic process which caused them, (i.e. vasculitis or pseudovasculitis). So determining if he has a vasculopathic condition which spontaneously remits is relevant to your assertion that IBT has caused an improvement.

So you expect me to send in your doctored ohotograph version of Alun's leg for an analysis? Do me a favour

If you don't fancy including my contrast enhanced images in a submission to a teledermatology site, then just post your own …

 [ Invalid Attachment ]

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=18961.msg217103#msg217103

[ I can almost taste the Glenlivet [] ] 

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

RD, This is not a single case we are observing, I have seen this revrsal of varicose veins and oedema using IBT far too many times for it to be a coincidence.

I have also observed the darkened skin where the veins have returned to normal size, and it looks like a bruising rather than a problem with peripheral veins and arteries.

I did explain that when the skin is stretched due to the veins expanding over many years the skin becomes tanned the same as the rest of the legs. When this skin contracts, the colour of it appears to darken. Bit like a balloon changes colour when it is inflated and deflated. Alun has visited his consultant and gp on numerous occasions. No one other than you appears to be indicating vasculitis.

Odd how it spontaniously reverses. I think Alun was in his early teens when these problems arose. He is now 34. Either way, be it the obvious varicosed veins or your vasculitis or Incredible Hulkivitis for that matter these photographs show a clear improvement that was predicted prior to tilting the bed and has been observed by others who have tilted their own beds.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

AKF

The heart rate decreases by 10-12 beats per minute on IBT. Yet circulation is improved. So if the heart beats less and circulation increases how do you account for that?

You would expect the heart rate to decrease when you are not standing. There is less work for it to do. The blood pressure at the interfaces in the kidneys will also be affected by the attitude of the body. How do either of these facts justify your new model of the body?

Did your friendly Proff tell you that the 'pulses of solutes' he detected at the kidneys were, in any way, related to breathing rate? I hate to ask this but have you actually calculated () the change in density of the blood as it goes through the lungs due to evaporation? Surely the actual amount would be highly relevant to whether or not you were right in your theory. Perhaps that would be a bit too like hard fact for your liking.
Needless to say, the effect on circulation to the head would be in the opposite direction as the heart would need to be pumping more dense blood upwards. Did you not think it through?

Ventilatory changes of pulmonary capillary blood volume assessed by arterial density
Journal of Applied Physiology, Vol 61, Issue 5 1724-1731, Copyright © 1986 by American Physiological Society

ARTICLES
Ventilatory changes of pulmonary capillary blood volume assessed by arterial density
J. S. Lee and L. P. Lee

By use of an improved density measuring system, we found that the gravimetric density of arterial blood of dogs fluctuates at the same frequency as the spontaneous or mechanical ventilation. Similar density fluctuations were observed in the blood leaving isolated, perfused lobes of dogs that were ventilated cyclicly. Employing an analysis that balanced the erythrocyte and plasma flows through distensible capillaries containing blood with a tube hematocrit lower than the hematocrit in large blood vessels, we derived a relationship to estimate from the density fluctuation the change in pulmonary capillary blood volume (Vc). For mechanical ventilation, the maximum change in density over one ventilation cycle increased from 0.084 +/- 0.01 to 0.47 +/- 0.05 (SE) g/l as the frequency decreased from 29 to 6 cycles/min. These density changes were estimated to be the result of an 1-16% change in Vc. A larger tidal volume for the mechanical ventilation led to a larger density fluctuation. The maximum density change of spontaneous respiration of 6 cycles/min was one-sixth of the mechanical case, indicating a much smaller change in Vc during spontaneous respiration. When the airway flow resistance was increased for spontaneous respiration, larger density fluctuations were observed.

[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

AKF

The heart rate decreases by 10-12 beats per minute on IBT. Yet circulation is improved. So if the heart beats less and circulation increases how do you account for that?

You would expect the heart rate to decrease when you are not standing. There is less work for it to do. The blood pressure at the interfaces in the kidneys will also be affected by the attitude of the body. How do either of these facts justify your new model of the body?

Did your friendly Proff tell you that the 'pulses of solutes' he detected at the kidneys were, in any way, related to breathing rate? I hate to ask this but have you actually calculated () the change in density of the blood as it goes through the lungs due to evaporation? Surely the actual amount would be highly relevant to whether or not you were right in your theory. Perhaps that would be a bit too like hard fact for your liking.
Needless to say, the effect on circulation to the head would be in the opposite direction as the heart would need to be pumping more dense blood upwards. Did you not think it through?

As you say one would expect the heart rate to decrease when not standing. IBT is comparible to standing because the dircetion of gravity is aligned the same as standing, without the pressure on the feet and tension on the muscles.

So why does the heart rate differ sleeping inclined compared to sleeping horizontal?. Not just in humans but in sleeping dogs also placed on an angle?

[RD]

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[Andrew K Fletcher (OP)]

The art of Distraction is a very useful skill R.D.  What has this got to do with Alun's Legs, who I might add has had zero symptoms or indeed a diagnosis of vasculitis prior to or since your last post. Why are you trying to discourage people from avoiding unnecessary, costly and more often than not, ineffective surgery?  Who is earning a fortune from this? Certainly not me !

For those of you reading this that need an understanding of vasculitis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasculitis

[RD]

 What has this got to do with Alun's Legs

IMO that medscape image of vasculitis has features similar to those of Alun's legs, (but more extreme) ...
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Combined with the other comparison that makes two different examples of vasculitis which have patterns in common with Alun's legs, (including the petechiae makes three).

... who I might add has had zero symptoms or indeed a diagnosis of vasculitis prior to or since your last post.

Vasculitis can be intermittent, it can relapse and remit of it’s own accord*.
If an inert "therapy" was being applied at the time of spontaneous remission it could be mistaken for an effective treatment when it isn’t.

[ * although there can be exogenous triggers like cold weather ]

Why are you trying to discourage people from avoiding unnecessary, costly and more often than not, ineffective surgery?

I’ve neither encouraged or discouraged varicose vein surgery.

The only thing I’ve encouraged in this thread is that Alun consults a doctor who is familiar with vasculitis / pseudovasculitis , perhaps via teledermatology.

[Eileencook]

I've been using this Venorid serum for about 2 months. I have noticed the varicose veins becoming somewhat smaller and the spider veins diminishing. Very low cost treatment in my point of view. thanks!

[RD]

I've been using this Venorid serum ... Very low cost treatment ...

$50 a jar for "Veno Rid©" [sic]. They don't say what's in the jar , or how big the jar is.

Either they haven't paid a few hundred dollars to register their brand-name as a trademark,
or don't know the difference between © & ®.

"VenoRid.com" is owned by a Joshua Grasmick. The other websites he owns include ...
"NuHairRX.com" , alleged baldness cure ,  [ could be same stuff in a different jar ].
"MommyReNu.com", alleged stretch-mark removal,  [ could be same stuff in a different jar ].
"myotaut.com" , allegedly shrinks orifices , [ could be same stuff in a different jar ].
& "PsychicPriest.com", & lots more ... http://domainbigdata.com/ni/qlp08Nj55eieK1Kmh902rw


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Patent_Medicine