Wheatgrass as a healing food...

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Offline SteveD

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Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« on: 11/02/2009 08:26:55 »
Wednesday February 11, 2009

I have been a vegetarian, later a vegan and then a raw, organic, vegan for 20 years now...I'm not rigid about it and it's not done for moral purposes but rather for physical and emotional health purposes. I used to weigh 50 pounds more than I do and I lost it 20 years ago...and it ain't coming back on in this lifetime!

But that's not what my question is about.

I grow my own wheatgrass, in a beautiful compost of organic coconut shavings from Sri Lanki!
I drink it one, two or three times a day from 2 to 8 ounces at a time.
It is the most healing substance i have ever seen in my life.
I wanted to know if anyone else has positive experiences with wheatgrass

Steve D.
San Francisco CA, USA 

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #1 on: 11/02/2009 08:36:24 »
SKEPTOID #6

The other day, I was getting a pineapple smoothie for lunch, when I happened to notice a poster extolling the virtues of wheatgrass juice. I didn't know too much about it, except that I've heard a lot of people talk about it as if it's the second coming. So out of curiosity, I began reading.

My friends, the English language does not contain adequate hyperbole to do justice to the tons of manure printed on this poster. If the average person can take even half of this poster seriously, then the ignorance and gullibility of the general public is much worse than even I would have ever guessed.

The poster was a list of claims, almost all of which centered around chlorophyll, of which it said wheatgrass juice is a rich source. Chlorophyll, as you know, is used by plants to synthesize proteins and sugars, using radiation from the sun to power a chemical reaction, converting carbon dioxide from the air and water from the ground into proteins and sugars, exhausting oxygen as a waste byproduct. Humans and other animals, not surprisingly, don't work this way. We get our proteins and sugars by eating food; our bodies have no special use for chlorophyll.

Now, I'm not saying that there's anything unhealthy or bad about wheatgrass juice. It's probably at least as healthy as just about any other plant that you could put in your juicer and blend into green syrup. I probably wouldn't rate wheatgrass as high on the nutrition scale as a proper vegetable, but I doubt very much that there's any harm in it. However, wheatgrass juice proponents don't merely claim that it's healthy. They've assembled the most outrageous list of vague medical conditions that it cures, and all sorts of types of wellness that it supposedly promotes. Since these claims are all entirely unsubstantiated, and sound far fetched to say the least, this is certainly a product you should approach skeptically. Let's take a look at some of these claims.

Wheat grass is high in oxygen like all green plants that contain chlorophyll, and the brain functions at an optimal level in a high-oxygen environment.

While it's true that if you cut off the oxygen supply to your brain, its function will be somewhat less than optimal, it's not true at all that chlorophyll is a good source of oxygen. I suggest you continue to rely on your lungs for that, which are probably better, since you don't have leaves. All types of chlorophyll have only trace amounts of oxygen. Chlorophyll is a carbohydrate, thus its makeup is overwhelmingly carbon and hydrogen. The molecule has as many as 127 hydrogen and carbon atoms, but only 5 or 6 atoms of oxygen, 4 of nitrogen, and one lonely magnesium atom. Incidentally, this also refutes another claim: that the high magnesium content of chlorophyll builds enzymes that restore your sex hormones. Interesting, given that enzymes are proteins made of amino acids, which contain no magnesium at all. I have no idea whether a single atom of magnesium restores sex hormones, whatever that means, but if so that's one hell of an atom. If you want magnesium, take a vitamin pill. If you want oxygen, take a breath. If you want sex hormones, get a girlfriend.

Wheatgrass juice has been proven to cleanse the lymph system, building the blood, restoring balance in the body, removing toxic metals from the cells, nourishing the liver and kidneys and restoring vitality.

The grammatical errors are from the poster, not from me. Let's take these one at a time. First, the claim that it's been "proven" to do any of these things. Notice that these claims are very vaguely worded: "restores balance", and "builds the blood". This is deliberate. If they tried to be specific, they would get into trouble with the FDA. If you make a claim that a product is intended to diagnose, mitigate, treat, cure, or prevent a specific disease, and your product has not been tested and is therefore unregulated, you're in violation of the law (21 U.S.C. 343(r)(6)). The wheatgrass people of course can't actually submit their product for testing against any particular diseases, because of course it would fail. So they are relegated to making only vague, untestable claims like it "builds the blood" and "restores balance".

As for whether the ingestion of wheatgrass will lower the levels of toxic metals in your cells, I wasn't able to find any research that supports this. However I did find research where living wheatgrass was found to be one of the grasses most susceptible to the absorption of zinc and cadmium from the soil through its root system, so it's more likely to be contaminated with these metals. If lowering your toxic metal levels is important to you, wheatgrass is the last thing you should put on your shopping list. And, of course, this is all founded on the assumption that you have toxic metal problems that need to be addressed. Before you seek out quack remedies for this unusual illness, first find out from a medical professional that this is indeed a problem you have, and don't go only on the assurance of a health food store owner who wants to sell you something. Probably the best thing you can do is stop chewing the lead paint off your windowsills.

It contains most of the vitamins and minerals needed for human maintenance, including the elusive B12.

Sounds compelling! But it sounded less compelling when I turned away from the poster, and looked at the store's own nutritional facts chart. The only vitamins present in a 2-ounce shot of wheatgrass juice are 15% of your daily allowance of Vitamin C, and 20% of iron. The rest of the vitamins and minerals, "elusive B12" included? Zeros, all the way down the board. The bottom line is that a shot of wheatgrass juice offers far less nutrition than a single Flintstones vitamin pill.

I would welcome a scientific test of wheatgrass juice. I challenge wheatgrass proponents to pick any supposed benefit of wheatgrass juice, and substantiate it in a real test. And by a test I don't mean a report from a hippie whose energy fields have been rejuvenated. I mean one of their claims that some sick people might actually believe and are avoiding important medical treatment as a result, such as the claim that wheatgrass juice will reduce high blood pressure. That's easy enough to test in a real, peer reviewed, double blind clinical trial. Take notice that the wheatgrass proponents have not done such a test, and there's probably a very good reason they've avoided it. Approach far fetched claims with skepticism, especially those that have not been, or cannot be, substantiated.

In the meantime, I'll continue to enjoy my pineapple and banana smoothies, no wheatgrass juice, bee pollen, or extract of ginseng needed.

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #2 on: 11/02/2009 09:23:35 »
Skeptoid #6

LOL...I love that. I, too, would welcome some objective testing of wheatgrass. I don't like the left wing, hippie, don't want to work, gonna drop dead from anemia,angry-at-your-Daddy-attitude I see from most vegans either...but I do like what works.

There's no money in testing though, so no one will do it.

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #3 on: 12/02/2009 07:22:53 »
Dentstudent,

Been thinking about your outraged cry for testing for the truth of wheat grass.

For the last 19 years I have not been able to smell. I went to five doctors including the head of Ear nose and Throat at Emory University, a research medical college in Atlanta Ga.There I was told that just under 1% of the US population cannot smell. That they did not know what caused it, that there was no known therapy and that I would just have to live with it. Two years ago I began ingesting large quantities of wheatgrass while being monitored by an AMA Ear, Nose and Throat surgeon, every single week, for two years. We titrated dosages often and to our mutual astonishment my sense of smell returned, not fully, but at it's best, at about 70% it's capacity...(best guess)

I don't like quacks, frauds and hustlers and I don't want to be duped by some Jim Jones-esque smooth talker trying to get my money.
But, on the other hand I don't want to go to the other extreme, like the tobacco manufacturers did in the 60's through the 90's, and say "because there is no effective testing that there is no correlation between cancer and smoking"

Steve D.



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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #4 on: 12/02/2009 10:32:26 »
Dentstudent,

Been thinking about your outraged cry for testing for the truth of wheat grass.

For the last 19 years I have not been able to smell. I went to five doctors including the head of Ear nose and Throat at Emory University, a research medical college in Atlanta Ga.There I was told that just under 1% of the US population cannot smell. That they did not know what caused it, that there was no known therapy and that I would just have to live with it. Two years ago I began ingesting large quantities of wheatgrass while being monitored by an AMA Ear, Nose and Throat surgeon, every single week, for two years. We titrated dosages often and to our mutual astonishment my sense of smell returned, not fully, but at it's best, at about 70% it's capacity...(best guess)

I don't like quacks, frauds and hustlers and I don't want to be duped by some Jim Jones-esque smooth talker trying to get my money.
But, on the other hand I don't want to go to the other extreme, like the tobacco manufacturers did in the 60's through the 90's, and say "because there is no effective testing that there is no correlation between cancer and smoking"

Steve D.


I'm glad that your sense of smell has at least partially returned  [:)]. However, this is not a scientific experiment and under no circumstances can you state that the wheatgrass juice was the thing that helped restore your smell since there was no control. It may have come back at that time anyway - there is no way to test it.

There is ultimately nothing wrong in drinking WGJ - but you do not need to spend excessive amounts of money on this when there is nothing in it that can't be gained from other food sources.

BTW - Skeptoid is a podcast so I do not claim any of the intellectual rights in my above post.....

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #5 on: 12/02/2009 20:33:01 »
I'm glad that your sense of smell has at least partially returned  [:)]. However, this is not a scientific experiment and under no circumstances can you state that the wheatgrass juice was the thing that helped restore your smell since there was no control. It may have come back at that time anyway - there is no way to test it.

If I dropped an anvil on my foot, and there was no control to make an objective comparison, would it still hurt?


There is ultimately nothing wrong in drinking WGJ - but you do not need to spend excessive amounts of money on this when there is nothing in it that can't be gained from other food sources.

I grow my own, it's free.



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Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #6 on: 13/02/2009 03:52:23 »
I'm glad that your sense of smell has at least partially returned  [:)]. However, this is not a scientific experiment and under no circumstances can you state that the wheatgrass juice was the thing that helped restore your smell since there was no control. It may have come back at that time anyway - there is no way to test it.

If I dropped an anvil on my foot, and there was no control to make an objective comparison, would it still hurt?

Whether an effect occurred is not really the issue in this case. It's whether the anvil (or the wheatgrass) caused that effect. You can insist until you're blue in the face that wheatgrass cured you, but there are too many variables to consider, eliminate and study, before a conclusion can be made.

Just because A occurred before or coincided with Z, does not mean A caused Z. You must also consider B,C,D,E,F,G etc.

Without intense scientific investigation, all you have is anecdote. Anecdote can never equal scientific evidence, and no conclusions can be drawn from it.

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There is ultimately nothing wrong in drinking WGJ - but you do not need to spend excessive amounts of money on this when there is nothing in it that can't be gained from other food sources.

I grow my own, it's free.

Are the water, fertilizer, growth medium, equipment, time and effort etc, that you use to grow it, also free?
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #7 on: 13/02/2009 06:36:45 »
Thursday February 12, 2009

Due to poor gardening planning I had an inadequate supply of  daily wheatgrass today. As a consequence my sense of smell diminished greatly. Tonight the lady I'm seeing visited told me there was a strong gas smell in the apartment. The Fire Department came with 13 men, two trucks and an SUV with axes and oxygen and corrected the situation.

This is an anecdote. It is also true. Only a fool would not learn from an anecdote because there wasn't any scientific evidence.

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Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #8 on: 13/02/2009 07:50:41 »
You keep assuming that wheatgrass is the cause of your smell "cure" when in fact you have not isolated it from thousands of other possibilities.

Further, how do I know you have not made your gas story up?
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #9 on: 19/02/2009 19:52:29 »
Thursday February 19, 2209

I talked to my friend and Ear, Nose and Throat surgeon. He said that there are no tests currently available that would accurately measure what we're seeing, anecdotally, in the wheatgrass. Also, that since wheatgrass's real effectiveness is due to it's 'living' quality, that is, (unlike spinach which has been harvested 1-7 days before consumption or broccoli which can be up to 2 weeks) it's still in the soil growing, that no pharmaceutical company would go to the expense of doing double blind testing on large groups of people, because the other types of wheatgrass delivery systems  that are currently commercially viable (powder or frozen) destroy the 'living' quality and render it uselessly inneffective.
  Finally, even commercial juice companies who sell over the counter wheatgrass, juiced on location, uses wheatgrass which has not seen the light of the sun or been watered in up to 7 days, so it's potency is diminished, significantly, and that the only really effective way to use wheatgrass is to grow it yourself. So, there is simply no money in it...

I don't like the crazy sounding and outrageous claims I've read about wheatgrass. It sounds irresponsible to me. But, as there are no claims for wheat grass being harmful, I'm not going to go to the other extreme and practice 'contempt prior to investigation' either.


Steve D.

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #10 on: 20/02/2009 02:57:10 »
Thursday February 19, 2009

After not having wheatgrass for seven days, due to poor garden planning, I now have a fresh supply. On taking

8 ounces, freshly juiced, with a a 4 ounce filet mignon, for breakfast,

carefully weighed and measured on a digital scale, I noticed , within minutes, an increased sensitivity to temperature and moisture, olfactorily. This usually precedes the return of my sense of smell. Tommorrow I will have:

8 ounces, freshly juiced, with a a 4 ounce filet mignon, for breakfast,
8 ounces, freshly juiced, with a a 4 ounce filet mignon, for dinner, 

and will report any changes I observe...


Steve D.

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Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #11 on: 20/02/2009 03:10:49 »
What do you think you're achieving by that? You can't even isolate your response from the placebo effect.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #12 on: 21/02/2009 04:49:02 »
Friday February 20, 2009,

As planned I took two 8 ounce glasses of freshly grown and cut wheatgrass today, whereas Thursday I had one 8 ounce glass and Wednesday I had no wheatgrass (see Food plan below). My sense of smell reappeared, as expected. It is fairly muted at this point, but is beginning to function slightly, for which I'm grateful. What I'm noticing is that while the wheatgrass is gradually supplanting the green drink and my sense of smell increases that I'm feeling a bit weak which I attribute to the decrease in calories associated with the green drink (which includes an avocado in the recipe). I also experienced a 1.2 pounds loss in weight. My plan tomorrow, Saturday, is the same as Friday but I'm going to add 1 ounce raw almonds at every meal

Wednesday meal plan was:

Breakfast 4 ounces filet mignon, 16 ounces freshly blended organic vegetable green drink
Lunch 16 ounces organic fruit smoothie
Dinner 4 ounces filet mignon, 16 ounces freshly blended organic vegetable green drink

Thursday meal plan was:

Breakfast 4 ounces filet mignon, 8 ounces wheatgrass
Lunch 16 ounces organic fruit smoothie
Dinner 4 ounces filet mignon, 16 ounces freshly blended organic vegetable green drink

Friday meal plan was:

Breakfast 4 ounces filet mignon, 8 ounces wheatgrass
Lunch 16 ounces organic fruit smoothie
Dinner 4 ounces filet mignon,8 ounces wheatgrass


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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #13 on: 21/02/2009 09:36:56 »
I can't wait for Bored Chemist to find this thread :P

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #14 on: 21/02/2009 20:24:28 »
Saturday February 21, 2009

The original question on this thread was "(Does) anyone else has positive experiences with wheatgrass". So far, no one has any experience.
It seems there are a number of people here, though, with academic and/or professional clinical experience.
What might be useful is some constructive ideas on how to test for the potentialities of wheatgrass in a cost effective way.

I like the challenge Dentstudent put forth  "I mean one of their claims that some sick people might actually believe"

Steve D.

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Offline CliffC

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« Reply #15 on: 22/02/2009 17:03:55 »
I am new to this forum and was introduced to it my SteveD, who is one of my friends.  I have also been drinking wheatgrass on and off for several years, and lately have been growing trays at my home for my own juicing.

I have no doubt that when drinking wheatgrass it provides a unique overall sense of wellbeing and energy and clears the mind.  I am not a vegetarian and eat pretty much a regular diet otherwise, but I think as a supplement it cannot be beat.

Why do people have so much skepticism regarding the efficacy wheatgrass which is a completely natural organic product and has not been shown to cause any harm, and there is a lot of experiential claims ("anecdotes") regarding its benefits?  I believe more study is merited regarding it's effectiveness and health benefits, and there hasn't been any good studies so far regarding this.  There may not be any big study since there is no money in a product where you can grow your own high quality wheatgrass for about $1.00 a tray or less.

I am also a physician/MD and have worked on many research projects in medicine and science, and believe in the scientific method.  However if we all wait for more evidence to produce itself convincingly regarding health benefits or not, it may be beyond our lifetimes and therefore too late to help us.

I know what works for me and therefore am coming from an experiential or pragmatic viewpoint in this case. If I notice health benefits from a product over and over, and that the benefits are gone when I am not using the product, well then I'd say there is some correlation worth looking into.  That and there being no major health detriment to using the product looks like a winner to me.

People had no idea regarding health benefits of fish oils, antioxidants, and other substances until they were more studied and their benefits "advertised" to the public.  People are just recently more recognizing the benefits of "whole" foods as opposed to processed foods.  It takes a long time for people to change their habits.  It's not all science, it's partly people's behavior and belief systems.  Why not put down the double cheeseburger and fries?  Because it tastes good, that's all that matters to many people, even me once in awhile...

-Cliff

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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #16 on: 22/02/2009 18:48:58 »
From skeptoid:
Quote
And by a test I don't mean a report from a hippie whose energy fields have been rejuvenated.

From CliffC:
Quote
I have no doubt that when drinking wheatgrass it provides a unique overall sense of wellbeing and energy and clears the mind.

^ just something I found amusing :P

SteveD I really hope you haven't made up this new account in the name of CliffC to try and add credibility to your case.

Anyway CliffC the reason people are so skeptical is because there is no evidence to support the claims that wheatgrass juice is akin to a magical healing potion. And you say experiments aren't being done because there's no money in it? How do you figure that? The wheatgrass industry even without scientific evidence backing it is big money, I see ads for wheatgrass juice all the time. And as Brian Dunning said:
Quote
Take notice that the wheatgrass proponents have not done such a test, and there's probably a very good reason they've avoided it.

Quote
If I notice health benefits from a product over and over, and that the benefits are gone when I am not using the product, well then I'd say there is some correlation worth looking into.  That and there being no major health detriment to using the product looks like a winner to me.

Stefan already said it, but it seems you missed it.
Quote
You can't even isolate your response from the placebo effect.

Of course being a doctor you should know all about the placebo effect.
« Last Edit: 22/02/2009 19:25:28 by Madidus_Scientia »

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #17 on: 22/02/2009 19:35:41 »
I can't wait for Bored Chemist to find this thread :P
I didn't realise it was lost.

I'm intrigued by this "I talked to my friend and Ear, Nose and Throat surgeon. He said that there are no tests currently available that would accurately measure what we're seeing, anecdotally, in the wheatgrass."
Does that mean that your friend doesn't think it's possible to measure the sense of smell?
It's perfectly possible and one of your stories even sugest broadly how to do it.
You dilute something which smells - like gas for example- and dilute it down till you can't smell it any more.
The dilution gives a measure of the effectivness of your sense of smell.

Done properly you can set this up as a double blind test and see how your sense of smmell is progressing.
However the other thing you need to account for is the day to day and hour by hour variability of that sense anyway.
It would be quite a long experiment and would need some specialist kit.
When you have the ersults please come back adn tell us about how this product made a difference to your sense of smell.
If you can find a few more anosmics to take part in this experiment then you might find something significant.



Please disregard all previous signatures.

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #18 on: 22/02/2009 22:02:32 »
I can't wait for Bored Chemist to find this thread :P
I didn't realise it was lost.

I'm intrigued by this "I talked to my friend and Ear, Nose and Throat surgeon. He said that there are no tests currently available that would accurately measure what we're seeing, anecdotally, in the wheatgrass."
Does that mean that your friend doesn't think it's possible to measure the sense of smell?
It's perfectly possible and one of your stories even sugest broadly how to do it.
You dilute something which smells - like gas for example- and dilute it down till you can't smell it any more.
The dilution gives a measure of the effectivness of your sense of smell.

Done properly you can set this up as a double blind test and see how your sense of smmell is progressing.
However the other thing you need to account for is the day to day and hour by hour variability of that sense anyway.
It would be quite a long experiment and would need some specialist kit.
When you have the ersults please come back adn tell us about how this product made a difference to your sense of smell.
If you can find a few more anosmics to take part in this experiment then you might find something significant.


Bored Chemist,

I am grateful for your positive input which is what this thread was designed to create.
I also appreciate the new word anosmic.
I'm not sure what a 'specialist kit' is, and would like to know.



During this current anecdotal episode what I have observed is, after having no wheatgrass for 7 days, that:
Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.
Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.


But most importantly, I am very interested to know how:

"Done properly you can set this up as a double blind test and see how your sense of smell is progressing."

If you would elucidate I would be grateful.

Steve D.




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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #19 on: 22/02/2009 23:50:20 »
I have also been drinking wheatgrass on and off for several years, and lately have been growing trays at my home for my own juicing.

I have no doubt that when drinking wheatgrass it provides a unique overall sense of wellbeing and energy and clears the mind. 

I am also a physician/MD and have worked on many research projects in medicine and science, and believe in the scientific method. 

I believe more study is merited regarding it's effectiveness and health benefits, and there hasn't been any good studies so far regarding this. 

I know what works for me and therefore am coming from an experiential or pragmatic viewpoint in this case. If I notice health benefits from a product over and over, and that the benefits are gone when I am not using the product, well then I'd say there is some correlation worth looking into.  .

-Cliff

Cliff C.,

It's good to see you here. Welcome. I appreciate your credentials,  your experience and  your absence of rancor on this incendiary topic. What do you think of Bored Chemist's idea?
I like it. Maybe some other substance besides gas, though? Don't want to be more noxious to my neighbors than necessary.

Steve D.

.... to measure the sense of smell?
It's perfectly possible and one of your stories even sugest broadly how to do it.
You dilute something which smells - like gas for example- and dilute it down till you can't smell it any more.
The dilution gives a measure of the effectivness of your sense of smell.
Done properly you can set this up as a double blind test and see how your sense of smmell is progressing.
However the other thing you need to account for is the day to day and hour by hour variability of that sense anyway.
It would be quite a long experiment and would need some specialist kit.

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Offline CliffC

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« Reply #20 on: 23/02/2009 05:03:55 »
It's funny to hear someone wonder out loud if SteveD and I are the same person.  It feels like a bunch of skeptics ganging up on the ranting, crazy person.  Steve and I are indeed friends and he pointed me to this forum to ask if I had any ideas to contribute.

As far as quantifying the sense of smell, there is a portable test kit (Univ. of Pennsylvania Smell Identification Test), but it is probably best used qualitatively or to track longitudinally over time on the same subject.  I don't know of a reliable test kit that is widely available that can dilute to parts/million accurately where you could quantify it, unless someone knows something otherwise.

I can understand that people will get inflamed if you look at some website promoting wheatgrass products, making claims that it cures cancer, AIDS, makes you live 20 years longer, whatever.  But if we say it may have some health benefits on a smaller scale which are yet to be determined, what is wrong with that premise and investigating it from there.  There might be some placebo effect as there is with any test, this could be controlled for in a well designed study.  However, it seems everyone else on this forum is ready to attack the person who even proposes that there may be some definite health benefits.  The studies cited that have NOT shown any benefits to wheatgrass, I do not accept as definitive either.  Let's just say that nothing is proven beyond a doubt to date, and everyone can eat, drink or take whatever they feel is best for them.

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #21 on: 23/02/2009 19:46:49 »
Oops.
I should know better than to be careless in using coloquial English in specialist fields.
"Kit" in this case is another word for equipment so what I meant was "It would be quite a long experiment and would need some specialist equipment".
Most people don't have gas dilution systems about the place waiting for someone to need to do an odour threshold measurement.
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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #22 on: 24/02/2009 10:42:43 »
Observations:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.
Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.

I attribute Sunday's dip in frequency to the fact that the second serving of wheatgrass was stored, post juicing, in a refrigerator for two hours before being consumed. My partner, who also had 2 ounces from the same cutting asked "Has this been mixed with water". When wheatgrass oxidizes, the potency seems to decrease.

I once saw one of those crazy ads for wheatgrass at a college town juice bar. It said " Actually, you could eat nothing but wheatgrass". I do not believe that is true. From a practical point of view, my math indicates that to do that on a 2000 calorie/day diet you'd have to drink 8 ounces, every 25 minutes, for 16 hours a day. But, more importantly, I have found that there is a toxicity level, at least with my body, at about 48 ounces/day at which point gastrointestinal distress and cramping start to occur. So, there are limits

That being said, I plan to increase the dosage 50% tomorrow to three eight ounce servings to see if I can kick start the olfactory nerve a bit.

Steve D.


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Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #23 on: 24/02/2009 11:46:34 »
Able to smell for 5-6 seconds at a time? What were you smelling? How long after you drank the wheat grass juice did this begin? How frequent were they? What was the total duration from first to last smell?
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #24 on: 25/02/2009 12:35:31 »
Monday observations:

I could smell 7 times before the first wheatgrass serving
I could smell 2 times between the 1st serving  to the 2cd serving;
I could smell 39 times between the 2cd serving to 3rd serving.
I could smell 17 times after the 3rd serving.

The real surpise was I could taste five times today.
That was unexpected, although, since those two senses are related it makes sense.

I will continue at three 8 ounce servings tomorrow (Tuesday)

Steve D.


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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #25 on: 25/02/2009 12:38:11 »
Date corrections

Tuesday observations:

I could smell 7 times before the first wheatgrass serving
I could smell 2 times between the 1st serving  to the 2cd serving;
I could smell 39 times between the 2cd serving to 3rd serving.
I could smell 17 times after the 3rd serving.

The real surpise was I could taste five times today.
That was unexpected, although, since those two senses are related it makes sense.

I will continue at three 8 ounce servings tomorrow (Wednesday)

Steve D.



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Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #26 on: 25/02/2009 13:00:15 »
Your observations don't mean much unless you can be more precise about them. You can start by answering my questions.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #27 on: 25/02/2009 19:01:06 »
SteveD, they don't mean much anyway because they may be entirely psychosomatic.
Until you can do a blind (and preferably double blind) trial you are not going to convince anyone.
Evidence is not the plural of anecdote.
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« Reply #28 on: 25/02/2009 21:21:54 »
BC, exactly. I was hoping if he would answer my questions, we could go from there.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #29 on: 26/02/2009 05:28:37 »
SteveD, they don't mean much anyway because they may be entirely psychosomatic.
Until you can do a blind (and preferably double blind) trial you are not going to convince anyone.
Evidence is not the plural of anecdote.


BC,

I'm not trying to convince anyone.

I would be interested in learning new ways of learning about wheatgrass and it's uses ...and your suggestion of blind and double blind testing seems useful and interesting to me. As requested below, a simple, cost effective means to testing would be helpful. The testing needs not to be simply scholastic, but germain to the original question "Wheatgrass as a healing food?

Steve D.



I am grateful for your positive input which is what this thread was designed to create.
But most importantly, I am very interested to know how:
"Done properly you can set this up as a double blind test and see how your sense of smell is progressing."
If you would elucidate I would be grateful.

Steve D.


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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #30 on: 26/02/2009 07:34:08 »
Wednesday observations:

I could smell 0 times before the first wheatgrass serving
I could smell 19 times between the 1st serving  to the 2cd serving;
I could smell 13 times between the 2cd serving to 3rd serving.
I could smell 7  times after the 3rd serving.

I could, again, taste five times today.


Total results for the last seven days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.
Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste

I've also lost 3.6 pounds in the last seven day run of wheatgrass usage.


Steve D.


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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #31 on: 27/02/2009 07:14:05 »
Thursday observations:

I could smell 0 times before the first wheatgrass serving
I could smell 22 times between the 1st serving to the 2cd serving;
I could smell 0 times between the 2cd serving to 3rd serving.
I could smell 9  times after the 3rd serving.

I could taste twice today. It my be that the decrease in frequency is affected by an upper respiratory infection I started taking antibiotics for last night.
I've also noticed frequency of the ability to smell increases in peripatetic circumstances and decreases in sedentary circumstances, perhaps due, in the former circumstance, to the changing environments bringing on new smells, and increased lung use.


Total results for the last eight days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.
Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

I've  lost 3.6 pounds in the last eight day run of wheatgrass usage.

Unfortunately, with the increase in consumption from two eight ounce glasses to three eight ounces glasses of wheatgrass juice/day the supply is exhausted and will not be replenished for two days

Steve D.



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Offline Madidus_Scientia

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« Reply #32 on: 27/02/2009 14:31:21 »
Excellent. A two day rest from the spam.

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #33 on: 01/03/2009 10:02:42 »
Friday observations:
No wheatgrass. 19 incidences of smell, 5 incidences of tasting

Saturday observations:
No wheatgrass. 5 incidences of smell, 2 incidences of tasting. Several incidences of perceiving temperature and moisture

Clearly the olfactory sense is diminishing. Starting tomorrow, Sunday, there will begin a fresh new supply of wheatgrass


Total results for the last  ten days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.
Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Steve D.

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Offline dentstudent

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« Reply #34 on: 01/03/2009 10:27:32 »
Steve - the best thing to do would be to find out how to do a scientific experiment. None of what you have done thus far is of any note scientifically, and is ultimately a waste of your time. Please note that I am not trying to belittle you, or say that what you are experiencing is not happening. What I am saying is that the way you are going about it is pointless and will not endear you to anyone here.

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #35 on: 01/03/2009 11:04:33 »
Steve - the best thing to do would be to find out how to do a scientific experiment. None of what you have done thus far is of any note scientifically, and is ultimately a waste of your time. Please note that I am not trying to belittle you, or say that what you are experiencing is not happening. What I am saying is that the way you are going about it is pointless and will not endear you to anyone here.

Dentstudent,

LOL...I appreciate your feedback. I am getting better physically as a result of my experiments, regardless of the inchoate nature of my methods and that is this thread's point "Wheatgrass as a healing food".

As far as being 'endearing'. I think Cliff C. likes this and he's the only one who is addressing the original question posed on February 11, 2009. Does anyone have any positive experiences with wheatgrass?"

I remain, however, open to positive suggestions on how to use better methods to explore the use of wheatgrass as a healing food.

Steve D.

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #36 on: 01/03/2009 13:09:35 »
...it's possible to measure the sense of smell.
It's perfectly possible and one of your stories even sugest broadly how to do it.
You dilute something which smells - like gas for example- and dilute it down till you can't smell it any more.
The dilution gives a measure of the effectivness of your sense of smell.
Done properly you can set this up as a double blind test and see how your sense of smmell is progressing.

Bored Chemist,

I have taken your suggestion and titrated one drop of peppermint in 2, 4, 6, and 8 pints of water.
In 2 pints the smell is quite apparent. In 8 pints it's virtually non-existant.
I'm thinking that if I get two bowls, one without peppermint, and have someone else put the single drop in it, and record the results with different quantites of wheatgrass, over time, we might be more...scientific.

PS...the use of gas was just too horrific


Steve D.

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Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #37 on: 02/03/2009 03:45:12 »
Please remember that most treatments impart a placebo effect on the patient, regardless of the intrinsic therapeutic properties of the treatment. So you may well feel like you're getting physically better, but since you cannot control for the placebo, you can't actually attribute it to the wheat grass.

If you want to get scientific about testing for peppermint odor, I would suggest that you sit in a closed room while 1 person prepares the peppermint solutions in a different room. They should prepare multiple identical pairs of bowls, numbered, with the peppermint applied randomly. When that person is done, they can knock on your door and leave your presence before you open the door to begin the test. You can mark the bowls that you think contain peppermint. When you're done, your friend can analyze the results with you. Ideally you could repeat this on a different occasion that your sense of smell returns again.

It is usually easier to determine whether effects are being produced, than it is to determine the cause(s) of those effects.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #38 on: 02/03/2009 06:39:21 »
Sunday Observations:

No wheatgrass, 2 incidences of smell, two incidences of taste


Total results for the last  eleven days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.
Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

The capacity to smell continues to decline.

Steve D.

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #39 on: 02/03/2009 06:41:33 »
If you want to get scientific about testing for peppermint odor, I would suggest that you sit in a closed room while 1 person prepares the peppermint solutions in a different room. They should prepare multiple identical pairs of bowls, numbered, with the peppermint applied randomly. When that person is done, they can knock on your door and leave your presence before you open the door to begin the test. You can mark the bowls that you think contain peppermint. When you're done, your friend can analyze the results with you. Ideally you could repeat this on a different occasion that your sense of smell returns again.

Stefen,

That was useful and positive.

Thanks,

Steve D.

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #40 on: 02/03/2009 06:46:31 »
Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.

Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.

Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

It is impossible for me not to notice a pattern here.

Steve D.

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #41 on: 03/03/2009 00:54:37 »
Procedure:

This morning, I measured one drop of peppermint into 8 pints of water. I then poured 4 ounces in a tea cup . In another tea cup I put 4 ounces of plain water. I identified them to my partner. I placed them in another room.  I left. She switched them around. I reentered and tried to identify them. I did this 3 times. 2 out of 3 times I was able to identify which cup was the titrated peppermint.

Then I consumed 12 ounces of wheatgrass and repeated the above experiment. I was able to identify 3 out of 3 times.

Observations:

I think I need to titrate the peppermint bowl more, or use more trials, or both, until I get a 50% ratio of being able to identify, or not, the titrated bowl, to get a clearer control.

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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #42 on: 03/03/2009 07:31:52 »
Monday observations:

5 incidences of smell before first wheatgrass
9 incidences of smel after first 12 ounce  wheatgrass serving,one incidence of taste
9  incidences of smell after second 12 ounce  wheatgrass serving, one incidence of taste
11 after incidences of smell after second 12 ounce  wheatgrass serving,



Total results for the last  eleven days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.

Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday,with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.

Tuesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday , with three 8 ounce servings, I had  31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Monday,with three 12 ounce, I had 34 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste


There was a 1700% increase in the reported incidences of being able to smell over yesterdays report


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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #43 on: 03/03/2009 20:55:04 »
Steve,
That's a reasonable start at a measurment of the sense of smell but, as has been pointed out, it's still vulnerable to the placebo effect.
What you need is a "placebo" wheatgrass.
It's possible, indeed quite likely, that your brain is playing tricks on you  (don't take that personally- it happens to everyone).
When you take the grass you expect to have a better sense of smell (and in the same way, when you don't you, expect to lose your sense of smell).
That expectation is enough for the brain to trun up and down the sensitivity to the signals it gets from your nose.

In order to test this properly "blinded" you need a "fake" wheatgrass that you cannot tell from the real thing and you need to get soemeone to give you either the real one or the fake without telling you which it is. Then measure the sense of smell (and the pepermint in water is a pretty good way to do it).
Do this lots of times and then see if, on average, you can smell the mint more reliably when you have had the real wheatgrass as opposed to the fake.

Incidentally, this observation "Clearly the olfactory sense is diminishing. Starting tomorrow, Sunday, there will begin a fresh new supply of wheatgrass"
sugests that the effect is psychosomatic- the placebo effect tends to wear off whereas real healing tends to continue.
 
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Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #44 on: 04/03/2009 05:54:47 »
How do you fake wheatgrass?

The taste and smell would give it away. You could administer it through a tube directly to the esophagus, but that's not exactly safe.
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline Bored chemist

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« Reply #45 on: 04/03/2009 19:06:34 »
How do you fake wheatgrass?

The taste and smell would give it away. You could administer it through a tube directly to the esophagus, but that's not exactly safe.
You can't so you cheat.
You get something that's fairly similar- perhaps another grass. Then you add something to both of them that covers the taste and smell.

Pernod and wheatgrass anyone?
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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #46 on: 04/03/2009 22:09:29 »
Tuesday observations:

Made a breakthrough between the second and third servings of wheatgrass. The sensing of smell, instead of being discrete incidences, suddenly became continuous.
 
After 7 incidences of being able to smell before the first serving of 12 ounces
          9 incidences of being able to smell after the first serving of 12 ounces
         11 incidences of being able to smell after the second serving of 12 ounces...Breakthrough

Also, after the third 12 ounce serving of wheatgrass I became violent ill. I attribute this to the second and third serving being too close together.
After discussion with two parties I've decided to keep the dosage at 12 ounces three times/day but to maintain 4-6 hours intervals between servings.


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Offline SteveD

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« Reply #47 on: 04/03/2009 22:35:06 »
That's a reasonable start at a measurement of the sense of smell but, as has been pointed out, it's still vulnerable to the placebo effect.
What you need is a "placebo" wheatgrass. In order to test this properly "blinded" you need a "fake" wheatgrass that you cannot tell from the real thing and you need to get someone to give you either the real one or the fake without telling you which it is. Then measure the sense of smell (and the peppermint in water is a pretty good way to do it).
Do this lots of times and then see if, on average, you can smell the mint more reliably when you have had the real wheatgrass as opposed to the fake.


Total results for the last thirteen days:

Thursday, with one 8 ounce serving, there was increased sensitivity to moisture and temperature.

Friday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 2 discrete incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Saturday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 10 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Sunday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 3 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.
Monday, with two 8 ounce servings, I had 9 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds.

Tuesday, with three 8 ounce servings, I had 65 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Wednesday, with three 8 ounce servings, I Had 39 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Thursday, with three 8 ounce servings, I Had 31 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Friday, with no wheatgrass. I had 19 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and five incidences of being able to taste
Saturday, with no wheatgrass. I had 5 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Sunday, with no wheatgrass. I had 2 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste

Monday, with three 12 ounce servings, I had 34 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds and two incidences of being able to taste
Tuesday, with three 12 ounce servings, I 27 incidences of being able to smell for 5-6 seconds before breakthrough into continuous smell


Bored Chemist,

I appreciate your feed back. I don't think that a double blind experiment with 'fake' wheatgrass would be practical, as time is limited.

I think all good experiments probably start with someone noticing, anecdotally, a repeated pattern and then wanting to see if that can be demonstrated accurately to others.
As my purpose was to restore my sense of smell, and in the last two weeks I've done that to my satisfaction, I'm done.

The peppermint testing seems useful if I want to try to communicate to other folks what I've found useful to me.

Thanks,

Steve D.


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Offline _Stefan_

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« Reply #48 on: 05/03/2009 06:02:12 »
If all you wanted was anecdote, why did you start this thread on a science forum?
Stefan
"No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish." -David Hume

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Offline BenV

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Wheatgrass as a healing food...
« Reply #49 on: 05/03/2009 09:32:14 »
Also, after the third 12 ounce serving of wheatgrass I became violent ill. I attribute this to the second and third serving being too close together.
After discussion with two parties I've decided to keep the dosage at 12 ounces three times/day but to maintain 4-6 hours intervals between servings.
If a large enough dose can make you acutely ill, wouldn't you worry about the cumulative effects of several smaller doses?  Do we know what active chemicals are in wheatgrass?  Any idea how the body deals with and excretes these chemicals?  If something is to be treated as, or considered medicinal, these are really the sorts of things we should hope to find out.  You could be slowly poisoning yourself.